[pp.int.general] freedom of speech

[Glenn Kerbein]

Reinier Bakels wrote:
> I know, the US is different. Allegedly, there are no objections to host
> neo-nazi websites in the US, while Americans get very nervous from
> seeing a woman's nipple for a couple of microseconds.
Those are two very different issues, viewed from different people.
Depending on someone's sexual identity, they might not like to look at
that nipple and find it offensive. The FCC may state that any nudity
must be aired at a certain time, with a certain rating.
Hosting post-modern pornography on a server in the States isn't illegal
either; it's just a method for one to broadcast one's opinion.
> 
> I value the freedom of speech, but I believe one should refrain from
> negative generalisations that are experienced as very unpleasant by
> certain communities, e.g. muslims. And the fact that such opinions are
> not seen as crimes or torts imho does not imply that one is socially
> allowed to say anything that is not against the law.
Social norms and legal statuses of religious commentary are two
different things. You are allowed to say over-generalized things, but
that doesn't mean you should; the consequences usually incur social outrage.
> 
> I referred to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former Somali refugee, who became a
> Dutch parliament member and now lives in the US. After she quit Islam,
> and pubklished a lot about that, she became under threat. In our
> country, as a MEP she was protected by bodyguards, payd by the
> government. The US government refuses to pay her protection;"we never do
> that".
She's not a politician here in the States, so she doesn't have
federalized protection. She has one of two options: she may hire a
private bodyguard service, or have the state she lives in provider her
with police protection. Jurisdiction.
> 
> Imho somehow that makes sense. If you needphysical protection for your
> opinions, you are not a "good communicator".
It's an unfortunate consequence, but it's a consequence nonetheless. If
she feels like she needs protection, she's free do to so, but it
probably won't be provided gratis.
> 
>> Religion is not a mandatory part of one's life. You can live without
>> religion, and you can live with the notion of religious confusion
>> (agnosticism).
>> I think you're making the mistake that you must be able to attest
>> publicly againt religion.
>> Here in the States, you're allowed to public debate of religion. You're
>> allowed to associate with one affiliation or another. The other side
>> exists too: you can attest and debate atheism.
>> Frankly, I don't think your theory of "freedom theft" by one political
>> association holds true for all countries.
>>
>> I could just be rambling on about nothing again. Damned colds.
>>
>> Reinier Bakels wrote:
>>> Perhaps an excellent example of the ambiguity of human rights is the
>>> debat about the "freedom of speech". Right-wing politicians claim
>>> this freedom to say very unpleasant things about religious and ethnic
>>> groups, and then want the government to pay their protection: Ayaan
>>> Hirsi Ali. Some even construe this right as the "right to offend".
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong. I fully support the idea that anything can be
>>> said about (the substance of) government policy. Attacking people,
>>> and groups of people as such imho is not permissible.
>>>
>>> Also the mistake is often made that social norms are confused with
>>> legal norms. The "freedom of speech" basically means that the
>>> government should not normally interfere. But there are other norms,
>>> social norms of civilisation and decency. Thus the right to offend is
>>> pretty nonsensical. Again, all policy *substance* may be attacked.
>>>
>>> In sum, the "freedom of speech" has been hijacked by rigyht-wing
>>> politicians, so one should be careful to invoke it (under its name).
>>>
>>> reinier
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>> -- 
>> Glenn Kerbein
>> Pirate Party of the United States
>> "Burn, Hollywood, Burn"
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general 
> 
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general

-- 
Glenn Kerbein
Pirate Party of the United States
"Burn, Hollywood, Burn"