[pp.int.general] From 50 to 95 years, next tuesday: how are WE going to react to extension of commercialrights?

[Andrew Norton]

Reinier Bakels wrote:
>>> I am working on it, I will present it in Helsinki, and it will 
>>> contain no
>>> surprises. Let me be clear, I don't care about "winning" from the 
>>> existing
>>> manifesto proposals. They are not binding anyway. And in my 
>>> perception, they
>>> suffer from major shortcomings, for the reason that they start from a 
>>> legal
>>> perspective, human rights! Didn't you say that politics are emotion?
>>
>> That will be too late. Hard for members to discuss and vote on it, in
>> time FOR Helsinki, if you're going to wait until then, especially as
>> not every party will be there; no US, no Australia, who knows who else
>> won't be there. Best not bother then. Yet again, all talk, and no
>> show.
> 
> It seems we first need a "meta-manifesto", in order to agree on some 
> format questions. And I will make practical proposals.

Reinier, have you paid ANY attention to what we've talked about on this? 
Legal issues, relevence of ECHR or anything else is UTTERLY irrelevent.

The point of the Manifesto is to be, as I've described it before, a 
statement of commonalities between parties. That is all. If we all 
stated the moon is made of green cheese in our national party platforms, 
that would be in it, but if one party said blue cheese, then it would 
only mention 'we believe to be made of cheese'. Your concerns, that 
'legally' it may not be a dairy product, and might contain more than a 
trace amount of silica, is of no concern, is of no relevance, and is 
totally outside the scope of this document.

In short (and I'll say this with short words, since you've not 
understood it every other time it's been explained to you), "it is a bit 
of text, that tells the guy that read it what we all have in the way of 
our thoughts that is the same." There, entirely monosyllabic.

For the grown ups, it is a statement of what each party has in common 
with its beliefs, and individual party manifestos. It is a Venn diagram 
of the policies of each party (and since you've not understood that, try 
here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_Diagram ). There are no 
references to laws, to any statements of fact, or indeed anything beyond 
the general assertion that 'we believe this should be so'.

Thus, everything I've left below this is utterly pointless and 
irrelevant. Not everything has to refer to human rights documentation, 
or be evidentially correct. It would seem that you have been disruptive 
of this process, though, without even bothering to understand the absis 
of the document. As I tell my kids (4, 6 and 12) If you don't know, ask, 
don't pretend you do, because you just look silly. You are looking silly 
to me.

Andrew
> 
> I am not sure whether it is feasible at all to make a universal 
> manifesto for worldwide use. In Europe we have the benefit of a special 
> Court for Human Rights, and a relatively modern Convention on Human 
> Rights, that allows effective enforcement of human rights, if a country 
> fails to observe human rights itself. The UN decraration on human rights 
> is basially not enforceable.
> 
> And in Europe we have the European Union as a problem, with its (widely 
> acknowledged) "democratic deficit", its Commission which is not really a 
> government, and the European Parliament which is not really a European 
> Parliment but an extension of national parliaments. Besides, European 
> politics are badly covered by media. Which is a chicken and egg problem: 
> media don't cater for things people are not interested in, and they are 
> not interested because they do not know what is happening. The opaque 
> environment of European politics is a paradise for corporate lobbyists.
> 
> The good news is that whoever endeavours to get "hands-on" involved in 
> Brussel and Strasbourg, can indeed exert influence. As became apparent 
> in the fight on the software patents. And it is a major opportunity for 
> Pirate Parties.
> 
> Please note also that in Europe, unlike the US, there is no "fair use" 
> exception in copyright - which leads to preposterous results. In Europe, 
> the (so-called) "exceptions and limitations" are listed limitatively in 
> the statute.
> 
> Even the differences between European countries may be such that 
> different PP policies are required. E.g. in Germany with its troubled 
> history they get very upset about mass surveillance, whereas in my 
> country it ts hardly an issue at all in mainstream politics. People 
> rather want video surveillance because they believe that it improves 
> safety in the public space.
> 
> Germany has a constitutional provision (Art. 14 GG) that warrants the 
> protection of property, and even some respected (but in our eyes crazy) 
> professors argue that this provision calls for pervasive intelletual 
> property protection.
> 
> I also noted that in former east block countries, the protection of 
> property (equated to intellectual property ...) is a sensitive matter. 
> In Poland I was told that under communism, property was not respected, 
> so it is a complicated message to tell the Polish, now free from 
> communist suppression, that to much property protection is wrong again.
> 
>> If you put half as much effort into doing stuff, as you did in writing
>> your emails, Reinier, the Dutch party would probably be ready to seat
>> their first candidate next election.
> 
> Writing a concise, to the point (meta-)manifesto is a lot more work. 
> Last week, I was in the US, and due to jet lag, I woke up *very* early 
> in the morning. And then I worked on the mailing list ... Sitting on the 
> edge of my bed, I did not have the concentration (and the documentation) 
> to work on a manifesto. And franly, I learned a lot from the debate 
> (though admittedly not alsways in an efficient manner ...)
> 
> reinier
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