[pp.int.general] Big Brother in NL?

[Nicolas Sahlqvist]

Tracking movements with GPS is so far the most integrity concerning
alternative suggested so far, but already larger cities in NL measure the
speed for cars entering and exiting the city, the speed cameras register all
Dutch licence plates and the same when exiting and calculates if the average
speed is higher then then speed limit, I bet the police is looking at this
information to track "criminals" movements too when they feel it is needed.
http://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/verkeer/english/section_control/
http://www.airquality.co.uk/reports/cat09/0505171129_Rotterdam_speed_control_zone_Detailed_Assessment.doc

In Sweden there are road tolls in Stockholm, they are handled via cameras
filming all license plates and radio boxes that regular commuters can buy
(motivation: discount on fee) and everything is processed at a IBM
datacenter in Denmark:
http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Work-live/Government-politics/Reading/Car-tolls-reduce-Stockholm-traffic/
http://lovetomorrowtoday.com/2009/05/12/ibm-stockholm-build-a-smarter-toll-system/
http://www.ibm.com/podcasts/howitworks/040207/index.shtml

In Germany there is a debate going on about road tax and it would not
surprise me if they follow the trend with cameras:
http://www.thelocal.de/national/20091105-23049.html

This is all motivated by environment issues and the privacy issues tends to
get forgotten...


- Nicolas
  PPI / PPSE member


On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 10:01 AM, aloa5 <piratenpartei at t-online.de> wrote:

> Reinier Bakels schrieb:
>
>  Hello,
>>>
>>> I want to ask if a pirate in the Netherlands can tell me(us) more about a
>>> hm... "green" project there to start kilometer-taxation of cars with a GPS
>>> onboard unit in every car.
>>>
>>> Aside that I am not a friend of such restrictions of mobility a GPS wich
>>> emitts a lot of data more then only driven kilometers is a no go. Our
>>> Constitutional Court forbid instruments allowing the state to create
>>> "movement profiles".
>>>
>>> I wonder how this is in the Netherlands.
>>>
>>
>> It is an old ambition to implement some sort of "road pricing" system in
>> NL. The present proposal *pretends* to register only the data really needed
>> for pricing purposes. The progress of the project is problematic, and the
>> experience with a chipcard for the public transportation over all of the NL
>> due to privacy concerns became more or less a nightmare for the government.
>> So I hope they learned their lesson.
>>
>
> According to the German press it doesn´t seem so.(?)
>
>
>  In my opnion, road pricing serves a purpose. Firstly, taxes on automobiles
>> are high (higher than in DE, afaik), and in the present system, the tax is
>> the same whether you drive a lot or not much. (Only the fuel tax is
>> usage-dependent (of course)). With a road pricing system, one pays for the
>> usage rather han for the posession of a car. A second reason for road
>> princing is the ability to differentiate, and thus to prevent people from
>> using their car during rush our on our congested road network if not really
>> necessary.
>>
>
> Mobility is essential for social interaction. Fuel tax is also usage-depent
> even if it is fact that in future wich hybrid and electro cars this may be
> changing. And it´s the decision of the people itself if they are in rush
> ours on the congested road. So: whats the Problem with being mobile e.g.
> with an electric car? "It´s not really necessary" is not a reason (if it
> would be we would have a problem with our whole life).
>
> If mobility and individualism depends on how much money someone earns than
> we have somethink like ecological kapitalism (an ecological class society).
> Maybe not within a city or in a small country. For countries in wich the
> distances are not marginal it is a problem.
>
>
>  Is it possible at all to build a system that respects privacy and still
>> complies with reasonable administrative requirements? I don't know. A "black
>> box" that only produces an (euro) amount may not be satisfactory because
>> then there is no way to settle disputes.
>>
>
> What are "reasonable administrative requirements" in this case? CO² is not
> a reason because ct per km ignore emissions. So only traffic jam is a reason
> for a possible(!) reason wich is not mentioned yet. It makes no sense at
> all. It just sounds like ecological socialism and/or only collecting money
> for the minister of finance under false flag (e.g. CO² ) working like "child
> porn" against wich no one have the heart to say something against.
>
>
>
>  For intanmce, they repeatedly made proposals to register all cards passing
>> certain highways, and to implement an "electronic moat" around Amsterdam.
>> Are there perhaps vendors of (privacy killing) systems that excite police
>> chiefs? The good news is that the present government keeps more distance
>> from the police (recently the chief of the Amsterdam police loudly
>> complained about that in a newspaper interview).
>>
>
> We have also politicians mentioning a moat-system for everyone with
> onboard-units on highways. The units are in trucks. They were established
> "only for moat, nothing other". And the police tries to use it also for
> searching murders and so on (step by step). And so will it happen for every
> database (ever).
>
> Big Brother does not come overnight. There was an old (controversial)
> "rechtsgeleerde":
> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Schmitt
>
> He mentioned that the absolut neutrality of the constitution in the
> Weimarer Republik opened the door for Hitler (totalitarism), opens the dorr
> for a legal revolution. The country is not "good" every time. There is a
> need for ethical values wich have to be granted (in constitution) and the
> authorities must(!) accept them also. He said that without this the country
> itself (we) loose the ability to seperate the "good ones"(tm) from the "bad
> ones"(tm).
>
> I am a realist (I don´t tend to be paranoic so far) but I hope that we all
> (in Europe) will not find out if he was right (again).
>
>
> Regards
> Otmar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> reinier
>>
>>
>>
>>
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