[pp.int.general] Women Pirates project

Mon May 3 17:49:57 CEST 2010

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Maxime Rouquet <
maxime.rouquet at partipirate.org> wrote:

> I am strongly opposed to any notion of positive discrimination. I think
> rejecting someone because (s)he is of a gender, a race, or anything I do not
> like is wrong, but promoting this person because (s)he is of such a
> gender/race/anyhing is kind of still considering him/her as "inferior" or
> "weak".
>
+1

>
> I think Eric is right when he says the problem of the "lack" of women will
> not be fixed by creating a women group, and I am afraid people who invite
> women would even more easily treat them as different. "You're a women ?
> That's cool, we have a group for you !"
>
> That would place the gender above everything else. We would of course
> consult the group regarding women questions, and probably show one or two in
> the media… but the rest of the time they would remain on the side.
>
> For this reason, creating a group for women would be a wrong idea, and
> could lead to a "ghetto" situation.
> *
> However, the proposition of Bogo is not such a group for women. It is a
> group to increase women's visibility, and it is open to everybody, including
> men.*
>

*YES, This is it. *

>
> I think that as long as we do not fall in the stereotype "women go the the
> WOPI section, men in the regular" and leave anybody free to participate or
> not in each, there is no problem in having such a group.
>
> I do not need to be black or gay or whatever to fight racism and other
> discriminations. Even if I am a man, I can want to defend Woman's rights.
> And so I must not be excluded of any group of that kind in PP because of my
> gender. If this is clear, WOPI is ok for me.
>
> And I would be happy to have such a group to correct me as soon as I am
> sexist or my "male behavior" causes problem, or to have a vision on some
> topics from the "Woman" side. Especially if it is based on reflexion about
> Human/Woman Rights, Freedom, and other things we aim to preserve.
>
> For example, many european countries are trying to impose that citizens
> show their face in public places, in the name of the women victim of
> religious integrism. (I am convinced one of the main objectives, if not the
> first, is instead to prepare for the "society of tomorrow", where there will
> be security cameras everywhere, and everybody not identifiable by them will
> be considered as guilty…) It would be interesting to have people studying
> such projects, and able to deal with every aspect, including here a woman's
> point of view.
>
> On another subject, it is important to remain calm and open. I am afraid
> victims of discrimination tend to be excessive in their feelings, and some
> might lose objectivity. The above exemple with the burqa is a very good one,
> as many intelligent women tend to defend a law against a symbol of
> discrimination, regardless of what this law also means for other Fundamental
> Rights.
>
> Reacting with feelings is the best way to get manipulated. I am convinced
> that a lot of artists are not even conscious of what is done in the name of
> protecting their work, they simply see pirates as people who do not want to
> reward them in any way but still want the thing, which makes them angry. So
> they do not try to understand why these pirate people are complaining about
> this or this new law to protect their rights when the day comes…
>
> I am closing this parenthesis, but please, do not let feelings alone guide
> your speach and reflexion.
>
> As far as I understand, everybody agrees on the objective (we must interest
> more pirate, and especially women !) and everybody has good suggestions
> about how to reach it.
>
> Here is my summary of the reflexion so far :
> 1) We should not make people run away by discussing endlessly about very
> precise things that most people don't even understand, care, or simply
> stand. So, let's try to get our ideas clear, understandable, and attractive
> to the largest audience.
> 2) We can create groups such as WOPI to enhance a side of the Pirate Party
> that is a bit… obscure ? neglected ? as long as we do not divide the
> movement by putting its members on a side, and as everybody is free to
> participate.
>
> Maxime
> (France)
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov <
> bogo at piratskapartia.bg> wrote:
>
>> There are a lot of countries that never let a woman to do politics. This
>> is the idea of the project - to increase women's visibility in our
>> movement  not to create a "gheto" or something.
>>
>>
>> Bogo
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Amelia Andersdotter <teirdes at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> On 3 May 2010 07:46, Eric Priezkalns <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>> > I feel this is a mistaken way to deal with a symptom, not a root cause.
>>> > Yes, there are too few women in the pirate movement.  There are also
>>> too few
>>> > older people, too few poor, too few ethnic minorities.
>>> > These people are not in the pirate movement not because of a failure to
>>> > 'mainstream' or 'empower' or any other jargon words that might be
>>> spoken by
>>> > a New York Professor of Sociology.  They are not in the pirate movement
>>> > because the pirate movement makes too little effort to appeal to them.
>>>  In
>>> > short, we do not try to explain our policies in ways that appeal beyond
>>> a
>>> > audience that is predominantly young, male, white and reasonably
>>> privileged.
>>> > The worst thing we could take is to take women, or any other group, and
>>> > place them in a 'special interest' faction.  Instead of modifying the
>>> policy
>>> > message to make it more appealing to a wider audience, they will just
>>> be
>>> > pushed into creating 'special interest' policies.  I dislike the idea
>>> of
>>> > that intrinsically, but more importantly, that approach never seems to
>>> work
>>> > in politics.  Voters can see through it and it does not appeal to them.
>>>  In
>>> > short, if you cannot come up with a political philosophy with a core
>>> message
>>> > that is appealing to women or any other subset of society, you cannot
>>> > address that by creating specialist policies around the edges.  People
>>> can
>>> > innately see the special interest policies do not fit with the
>>> philosophy
>>> > and so become sceptical about them, and rightly so.
>>>
>>> Bullshit.
>>>
>>> Voters don't want to vote for a party that doesn't seem inclusive.
>>>
>>> > If we want more women etc in the movement, the right place to begin is
>>> not
>>> > by creating a ghetto for them.  The right place is to look at ourselves
>>> and
>>> > ask what is in our behaviour that is a barrier to inclusion.  It is not
>>> hard
>>> > for me to see examples of behaviour that leads to exclusion from the
>>> pirate
>>> > movement.
>>>
>>> The "ghetto" could also act as a group for women who can't be arsed
>>> waiting for the non-sexist society to emerge to adapt to and see
>>> through male behavioural flaws.
>>>
>>> Women tend not to be that interested in party politics to begin with,
>>> but one thing that has been working in the past is actually creating
>>> women's groups inside the movement. Uh. How to say. It's a problem on
>>> the male side of the story, with behaviour and all, but it's also a
>>> universal problem and a female problem that segregation is assumed.
>>>
>>> In fact, even looking at the way we raise children, you will notice
>>> how children are separated quite early on. It makes sense for women
>>> and men to have their own groups - or to tear down the sexist barriers
>>> hindering the way to the future! The question is whether the Pirate
>>> Party is the right arena for anarchofeminism or not.
>>>
>>> /amelia
>>>
>>> >
>>> > From: "Bogomil \"Bogo\" Shopov" <bogo at piratskapartia.bg>
>>> > Date: 2 May 2010 12:26:34 BST
>>> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>>> > <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>>> > Subject: [pp.int.general] Women Pirates project
>>> > Reply-To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>>> > <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hey again,
>>> > Here is some ideas and tasks for a project called WOPI. I am looking
>>> forward
>>> > to see you participating.
>>> > http://int.piratenpartei.de/User:Bogomil/Projects/WOPI
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ____________________________________________________
>>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Amelia Andersdotter
>>> Lissabon-MEP
>>> +46 722063698
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov
>> Pirate Party Bulgaria
>> http://piratskapartia.bg
>>
>> Blogger, FOSS and Mozilla advocate, Digital Rights Warrior.
>>
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/bogomep
>> Blog: http://mozgull.bogomil.info
>> CV: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bogomil
>> GPG: 0x03CCF750
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>

-- 
Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov
Pirate Party Bulgaria
http://piratskapartia.bg

Blogger, FOSS and Mozilla advocate, Digital Rights Warrior.

Twitter: http://twitter.com/bogomep
Blog: http://mozgull.bogomil.info
CV: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bogomil
GPG: 0x03CCF750
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