[pp.int.general] [Pp-leaders.discussion] EU: ESM-treaty

Amelia Andersdotter teirdes at gmail.com
Sat Nov 5 23:34:34 CET 2011

On 05.11.2011 23:10, Philip Hunt wrote:
> On 5 November 2011 21:30, Amelia Andersdotter<teirdes at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On 05.11.2011 21:45, Philip Hunt wrote:
>>> On 5 November 2011 20:16, Amelia Andersdotter<teirdes at gmail.com>    wrote:
>>>> The EFSF is a good thing :)
>>>> [...]
>>>> This type of stabilizing fund is meant to correct that. The fund can push
>>>> money into "poor" regions while their crisis sorts out.
>>> If that was what was being done, then I would support it. But the EFSF
>>> is a bank guarantee facility: if a country cannot pay its debts to a
>>> bank, the EFSF pays the bank. So the money doesn't go to people in
>>> poor regions, it goes to the bankers.
>> Sure. It's not a socially stabilizing fund, it's a financially stabilising
>> fund. If one wants socially stabilising funds, I believe ones best shot is
>> to have a re-distribution of wealth system, perhaps based on progressive
>> incomes taxes and social welfare systems that secure for people health care
>> and education. Like, some kind of permanent institution rather than a
>> temporary fix crisis fund.
> Yes, although I think that should be done on the nation state level,
> because it wouldn't work politically at the European level.

Of course it would work politically at the European level. You just need 
to make the right political decisions. This is what we have politicians for.

You can't say that you want a Europe which safe-guards the social 
interests of Europeans and then complain loudly about how Europe does 
not do this, while at the same time you say that Europe should not be 
politically allowed to introduce such safe-guards.

The EU is currently primarily a financial cooperation - the EU currently 
is making financially stabilising funds. Since almost everyone (in my 
opinion stupidly) agrees that the EU has nothing to do with social 
security, it makes no sense for any EU government to care about the 
state of social security in any other EU country - that's not their 
mission statement or obligation. Every member state is, from a social 
security perspective, on their own. Isolated.

I feel that a financially connected Europe needs also to be socially 


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