[pp.int.general] R: What is democracy in a party

[Moramarco]

This is one of the group who tell lies. I was invited but I'm gone. In the 
video there is not even my speech. I was there because I did not feel part 
of the PPI and tried other alternative Pirate. This has not been possible 
and this handful of sold to parties who pay, is about exploiting. I with the 
other two have nothing to do. In fact, my Pirate Movement is Italian, the 
other two have done Pirates 2.0. This gentleman group failed and 
undemocratic continues to lie. My whole story online and transparent. I will 
not answer even more in these subjects and sellers who make money in the 
name of the Pirate Party and also behind the International. When would you 
be available to all Pirates International and Italian with healthy mind. 
Greetings again and good 2013


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alv" <alv at dyne.org>
To: "Pirate Parties International -- General Talk" 
<pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] R: What is democracy in a party


> On 2012-12-31 19:04, Moramarco wrote:
>> Sorry again for the translation
>>
>> Carlito Your note is shared in Italy are proceeding to the expulsion
>> of some pirates just for the simple fact that they have complied with
>> the Codex Pirates ... They censored and are defined as people
>> uncomfortable. After the previous email of complaint to the
>> international community of the Pirates, are closing and controlling
>> even more to prevent further intrusion democratic as mine. It
>> 'important that the community know the presence of this aspect in
>> Italy and if you have someone who speaks Italian can provide documents
>> and evidence. It 'also important that, as a Movement pirate, January
>> 9, this will be made public in Italy and services through video
>> journalists. Thanks and Happy 2013
>>
>> Ilmimmo
>
> Mimmo you are the one that gone to talk with scilipoti
> because you was manipulate by vilno' and zagami (your words) and want to
> achieve some power on the soulder of pirate party against the rules
> of the party, so after you saw that you can't do what you want, you made
> your private (movement pirate) putting inside all your family in the
> great tradition of italian parentalismo.
>
> Sure you are using the Pirates CODEX
>
> Alv.
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlito" <carlito at subvertising.org>
>> To: "'Zbigniew Łukasiak'" <zzbbyy at gmail.com>; "'Pirate Parties
>> International -- General Talk'"
>> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 6:48 PM
>> Subject: [pp.int.general] R: What is democracy in a party
>>
>>
>>> Da: Zbigniew Łukasiak
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Carlito <carlito at subvertising.org> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > So, if the majority expulses members and stop new subscribers you
>>>> will
>>>> always have the same "controllers" ad vitam.
>>>> >
>>>> > IMHO this seems not being a "democratic organization" (the first
>>>> rule
>>>> > should be alternance of government)
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion the alternance of government is only an indicator of
>>>> democracy - if there is no government (i.e. no board in this case) you 
>>>> can still
>>>> have a democracy.
>>>
>>> Yes you can, unfortunately IMHO PP IT doesn't.
>>>
>>>> From wikipedia:
>>>>
>>>> Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have 
>>>> an equal
>>>> say in the decisions that affect their lives. Democracy allows eligible 
>>>> citizens
>>>> to participate equally—either directly or through elected 
>>>> representatives—in
>>>> the proposal, development, and creation of laws.
>>>>
>>>> With a permanent Liquid Feedback assembly you can have a system that
>>>> meets the criteria above.
>>>
>>> Yes you can have it but unfortunately IMHO PP IT doesn't.
>>>
>>> Following Wikipedia's definition we should first of all define who are 
>>> these "eligible citizens" (that will be part of the democratic process).
>>> If we talk about a State, is all about citizenship: the citizens vote. 
>>> Simple.
>>> In a private organization like PP IT is totally its own business. That's 
>>> why the PPI must control if there is a democratic structure behind.
>>> In other words it's all about rules and procedures: what you write in 
>>> the Statutes/Bylaws.
>>> IMHO, if you are so crazy to put there Liquid Feedback as unique binding 
>>> organism you have to carefully write superb rules and procedures to 
>>> ensure the democratic process.
>>>
>>> So let's analyze the PP IT's rules and procedures, from my point of view 
>>> of course.
>>> The rules for new memberships are that only few Pirates have the right 
>>> to certificate new ones.
>>> When I first read it (and voted it) I thought: "Wow, nice, kind of 
>>> democratic, isn't it?"
>>> But as soon as you become certificator and your certifications are too 
>>> many, the LQFB admin stops the process for "take over danger". He calls 
>>> his friends, propose (and win) the suspension of certifications and if 
>>> you protest/shout too loud they censor you from al the mailing lists and 
>>> propose (and win) for your expulsion.
>>> This is also a paradox and totally suicide-strategy because as soon as 
>>> you are an influent person (that could help the party growing) it goes 
>>> without saying that you are also a good certificator (!!!).
>>>
>>> Are you still convinced this is a democratic organization?
>>> Please Note Zbigniew: This is not an ironic/sarcastic question:
>>> I strongly believe that these mad processes must be experienced in first 
>>> hand to be deeply understood.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Carlito
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>