[pp.int.general] R: What is democracy in a party

[Alv]

On 2012-12-31 19:22, Moramarco wrote:
> The 35 certifications they claim to be false, the justifications made
> ​​by those who have been accused, try another. This group was afraid
> to lose possession of the party and made it out ... It's not 
> democracy
> ARE ALWAYS THE SAME AND ARE NOT DEMOCRATS. The proof of what is
> reported that the Forum Pirate Party International, sees the presence
> of the PPI and is also closed and non-interactive. In Italy you have
> installed the Forum and is also controlled by the usual names who
> write it here and many have fled to the manner and content contained
> and controlled. The Pirate international community should not
> recognize the hard work of the PPI and distance themselves publicly
> until the present will of the usual handle everything. And the usual
> group that writes are always here ... Regards

You see you lying because you are without knowledge there are more than 
500
users on the forum:

( Partito Pirata Italiano » Elenco utenti » Visualizzazione degli 
utenti da 1 a 30 (di 575 utenti totali))

total users 575

Alv.

>
> Il Mimmo
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alv" <alv at dyne.org>
> To: <carlito at subvertising.org>; "Pirate Parties International --
> General Talk" <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 7:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] R: What is democracy in a party
>
>
>> On 2012-12-31 18:48, Carlito wrote:
>>> Da: Zbigniew Łukasiak
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Carlito 
>>>> <carlito at subvertising.org> wrote:
>>>> > So, if the majority expulses members and stop new subscribers 
>>>> you
>>>> will
>>>> always have the same "controllers" ad vitam.
>>>> >
>>>> > IMHO this seems not being a "democratic organization" (the first
>>>> rule
>>>> > should be alternance of government)
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion the alternance of government is only an indicator of
>>>> democracy - if there is no government (i.e. no board in this case) 
>>>> you can still
>>>> have a democracy.
>>>
>>> Yes you can, unfortunately IMHO PP IT doesn't.
>>>
>>>> From wikipedia:
>>>>
>>>> Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens 
>>>> have an equal
>>>> say in the decisions that affect their lives. Democracy allows 
>>>> eligible citizens
>>>> to participate equally—either directly or through elected 
>>>> representatives—in
>>>> the proposal, development, and creation of laws.
>>>>
>>>> With a permanent Liquid Feedback assembly you can have a system 
>>>> that
>>>> meets the criteria above.
>>>
>>> Yes you can have it but unfortunately IMHO PP IT doesn't.
>>>
>>> Following Wikipedia's definition we should first of all define who
>>> are these "eligible citizens" (that will be part of the democratic
>>> process).
>>> If we talk about a State, is all about citizenship: the citizens
>>> vote. Simple.
>>> In a private organization like PP IT is totally its own business.
>>> That's why the PPI must control if there is a democratic structure
>>> behind.
>>> In other words it's all about rules and procedures: what you write 
>>> in
>>> the Statutes/Bylaws.
>>> IMHO, if you are so crazy to put there Liquid Feedback as unique
>>> binding organism you have to carefully write superb rules and
>>> procedures to ensure the democratic process.
>>>
>>> So let's analyze the PP IT's rules and procedures, from my point of
>>> view of course.
>>> The rules for new memberships are that only few Pirates have the
>>> right to certificate new ones.
>>> When I first read it (and voted it) I thought: "Wow, nice, kind of
>>> democratic, isn't it?"
>>> But as soon as you become certificator and your certifications are
>>> too many, the LQFB admin stops the process for "take over danger". 
>>> He
>>> calls his friends, propose (and win) the suspension of 
>>> certifications
>>> and if you protest/shout too loud they censor you from al the 
>>> mailing
>>> lists and propose (and win) for your expulsion.
>>
>> Yes you forgot to say what you had done a falsification of 35 
>> certifications
>> all in one day, with people that wasn't even present in the country 
>> because
>> the suspension of your mandate was in act, going against all the 
>> rules
>> of the party, and all is well documented, it's not a case that you 
>> was
>> expulsed.
>>
>> So you still are crying around lying to everyone
>>
>> Alv.
>>
>>
>>> This is also a paradox and totally suicide-strategy because as soon
>>> as you are an influent person (that could help the party growing) 
>>> it
>>> goes without saying that you are also a good certificator (!!!).
>>>
>>> Are you still convinced this is a democratic organization?
>>> Please Note Zbigniew: This is not an ironic/sarcastic question:
>>> I strongly believe that these mad processes must be experienced in
>>> first hand to be deeply understood.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Carlito
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> 
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general