[pp.int.general] philosophical mind farts

[Anouk Neeteson]

You're so right about that, the word "absolute" has already an
impossible meaning in this use, because even information follows the
laws of physics and one CANNOT INSTANTLY share knowledge which would
be the 'absolute' state of transparency. In the end it is not a
problem as Antonio already stated. I only (always) respond to generic
statements with the limiting of that statement. Its my nature to be
scrutinous which is not the same as trolling.


On 21 July 2012 16:49, Marko Mitrovic <archamond at gmail.com> wrote:
> I feel that we shouldn't disscus need for absolute transparency, as we would
> probably all agree that it is not really that desireable, but only
> unneccesary lack of transparency and bad naming of this mailing list :)
>
> On Jul 21, 2012 4:46 PM, "Anouk Neeteson" <jakobsheep at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I understand your point of view Antonio, but even in your ideal world
>> there are narcissists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism and
>> other (criminal/destructive) that bring in the end the worst out of
>> the people. I state that (lots of) power corrupts. Full stop. Read
>> George Orwell's Animal farm as a parable. We HAVE to protect us from
>> our own 'dark' nature. Sorry to be the party pooper here :(
>>
>> On 21 July 2012 16:02, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > Not for immediate realisation ;) ... the fact that there would be no
>> > additional advantage to be gained in siphoning off some of that
>> > power/influence for ones own use.
>> >
>> > Consider a world where ones survival would not be threatened... would
>> > one
>> > need extra resources to defend oneself better than the neighbour? What
>> > would
>> > the power/influence be useful for, then?
>> >
>> > And of course, trust can be all but blind... before you have a margin to
>> > be
>> > able to knowingly trust others... you have to educate yourself. If you
>> > do
>> > not trust yourself and your ability to detect misbehaviour... you do not
>> > have any margin to trust anybody.
>> >
>> > Too many see horizontal assemblies merely as a way to have the right to
>> > stick their nose in everything... believing that is the way not to be
>> > fooled. The plea for absolute transparency is another such a thing.
>> > Transparency does not benefit the blind ;) it benefits the strong that
>> > can
>> > see opposition from afar.
>> >
>> > Confidence, knowledge, wisdom... that benefits even the blind.
>> >
>> >
>> > Just a few quicki cents ;) .
>> >
>> > Antonio.
>> >
>> >> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:47:56 +0200
>> >> From: jakobsheep at gmail.com
>> >> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PP-Leaders list update reminder
>> >>
>> >> @antonio,, quote:"Total transparence = total lack of trust."
>> >> Give me 1 good reason why I should trust blindly anyone at a position
>> >> of power and/or influence?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 21 July 2012 13:17, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > What does not make sense is the fact that the list has been set up
>> >> > and
>> >> > operated under a known set of restrictions, being a closed list being
>> >> > one of
>> >> > them. All that has been said assumed those restrictions would apply,
>> >> > and
>> >> > perhaps things that would not have been mentioned under other
>> >> > conditions
>> >> > have been disclosed there.
>> >> >
>> >> > You can not change those conditions now and make everything public.
>> >> >
>> >> > Not without barring everyone from trusting you again with any kind of
>> >> > information that should not go public before the one providing it
>> >> > decides
>> >> > so.
>> >> >
>> >> > Imagine how difficult it would become for journalists if nobody
>> >> > trusted
>> >> > off-the-record and embargo to be respected... and abide by what is
>> >> > necessary.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > You do not seem to understand it is at all impossible to have short,
>> >> > mid
>> >> > and
>> >> > long term strategies if you can not conceal anything from your
>> >> > opponents
>> >> > and
>> >> > adversaries... then all you can do is day to day improvising at the
>> >> > level
>> >> > the least intelligent of your allies can understand.
>> >> >
>> >> > Very poor strategy.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Without trusting each other, in the sense that you do not need to
>> >> > know
>> >> > everything to be sure the other is acting to the best of his ability
>> >> > to
>> >> > further the common goal, we will get nowhere.
>> >> >
>> >> > Distrust will keep ruining every effort.
>> >> >
>> >> > Total transparence = total lack of trust.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > And even with the total transparence, achieving anything becomes
>> >> > really
>> >> > impossible, under the present circumstances.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Antonio.
>> >> > PP-ES
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 12:54:51 +0200
>> >> >> From: jakobsheep at gmail.com
>> >> >> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PP-Leaders list update reminder
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Good thinking Markus, I agree. And for the protection of their
>> >> >> informel conversations before "publishing" they still have their
>> >> >> private communications like E-mail to guarantee free thinking
>> >> >> WITHOUT
>> >> >> restrictions and no criticism during the formation of an unique free
>> >> >> opinion !
>> >> >> So we could have and transparency and guaranteed privacy at the same
>> >> >> time.
>> >> >> Does this make sense?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (in the forming of one's opinion
>> >> >> On 21 July 2012 08:19, Markus Drenger
>> >> >> <markus.drenger at piratenpartei-hessen.de> wrote:
>> >> >> >> [..]
>> >> >> >> It is used for the
>> >> >> >> delivering of important information only [..]
>> >> >> >> and not for discussions.
>> >> >> >> well as to enable PPI members to discuss sensible matters.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > discussion or no discussion, that's the question ;)
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > if this list is full of important information, without spam or
>> >> >> > other
>> >> >> > troll threads, why not make this list world-readable?
>> >> >> > It would be a perfect source of information within ppi.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Greetings,
>> >> >> > Markus
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ____________________________________________________
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>> >> >> >
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>> >> >
>> >> > ____________________________________________________
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>> >> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >> >
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>
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