[pp.int.general] The true core Pirates principles, -Serious attempt to get a workable consensus - TLDR version
ningunotro at hotmail.com
Tue Oct 16 09:27:12 CEST 2012
Lets see what we can really use of all that has been said.
"We can very well play the game of politics just one level higher
than the all the other parties - and make them redundant in the
proces. After all politics is a form of information processing, and
as far as manpower is concerned, I think we have a winning edge
between the lot of us. All we need to do now is to find ways to make
that advantage concrete. The rest is irrelevant - power, in the end,
is a matter of activity - and we will spread that out over as many
nodes as want to be involved, cause we will find ways to make that
manpower count. Oh yes, I have plans.
Your ideology & principles are in the way, playing last century's
political game & will not leave us with any sort of advantage as a
political party, nor will they change anything in the long run.
Ideologies and principles come and go, what remains is the balance
of power. We must use this opportunity to maximize the number of
nodes involved in the flow of power - particulary around the area's
where previously there were only a handfull, as around
representatives in representative demcoracies. By doing their job
for them. Better. Some 50, 60 thousand voters versus one
representative - I think we can succeed brilliantly here."
I tend to agree. We may have one problem with the information
processing though. Having a winning edge between the lot of us,
depends on how we function as said lot. If it means that all ideas
are input and after processing the best ideas are retained no matter
where they came from, I agree and we should succeed brilliantly as
said. But if it means that instead of the best ideas and no matter
where they came from we are only going to consider ideas coming from
people among us that we trust and that instead of selecting for the
best ideas geared towards the achievement of the best possible world
for all we keep only those the biggest majority of us can agree with
thinking about having the most fun or the least hardship at present,
each of us using his personal and somewhat selfish criteria geared
towards immediate satisfactions... then we are in trouble.
Ideologies, and what we have made them be, are a big problem we need
to understand. Ideologies are collections of ideas that work
together to make life as comfortable as possible for the group
developing them and putting them into practice. I believe they can
be classified according to two criteria. A philosophical one is
about whether the solutions proposed are equitably intended to be
accessed by everyone or if the benefits are only intended for some
privileged part of humanity. A practical one is whether what is
intended can be worked towards from within the circumstances we
endure at the moment.
And talking about the circumstances we endure, there is one very
rational question that has not really anything to do with ideology
but nevertheless taints everything we do... the way each and
everyone of us, while not having obtained the answers to the simple
questions of who am I, where am I, and what am I doing here, needs
to buy time to investigate further and can only do so surviving,
raising the point of deploying a suitable strategy to achieve this.
Here we find out there are basically two kind of strategies,
individual ones that ultimately lead to vertical corporate and
political structures, and collective ones that lead to inclusive
horizontal structures. With one caveat, that while at first when
humanity had to think about it both alternatives had plenty of room
to be developed... and nobody was able to imagine there would be
future trouble, and nowadays we are well aware of the fact that we
ran into trouble and are living with the consequences we must try to
mitigate first and totally correct as soon as possible.
The rationality of our educated elites has come to a point that they
use game theory to model a way out of the mess we have manoeuvred
ourselves into. We still have not obtained the answers to our three
fundamental questions, so we still need to survive to buy time, and
the exquisite learned logic of these elites has lead them into a
logical trap... on purely theoretical grounds and going all the way
down the anticipative path of game theory... there is for any given
individual or group that competes on a non-collaborative basis only
one relative safety platform as far as assuring survival is
concerned: having the control of at least half of ALL of Earth's
resources. Why? Because that is the moment that you can finally take
a break from the accumulation frenzy... once you control that much,
no other individual or group, what the heck, not even a coalition of
everybody else, can ever grab more resources than you and thus wage
a war on you that you might loose, forfeiting survival.
The result for today's situation, is that we have a mix of people
with ideological considerations, and people with rational
considerations... which, game theorywise... is presenting very
Without the rational dilemma, I'd say that that a pure anarchist
ideology would be the best solution for humanity, closely followed
by a pure liberal ideology. Both are non aggressive strategies. The
conservative ideologies, but also the actual liberal ideology that
evolved into neo-liberalism, became aggressive because of their
rational approach to the accumulative value of absolute property
Then, with the Industrial Revolution, we had an incident that gave
birth to two very aggressive artificial ideologies created to wage
war... conservative bourgeois forces instrumentalized Marx ideas to
massify and launch against an obstaculizing landlord such as the
Tzar of Russia the combined strength of all dispossessed, with a
tremendous viral success that backfired as it could not be contained
nor extinguished, and ultimately had to be fought world-wide with an
as virally unrelenting fascist strategy.
Building up to the situation we live today.
This is the situation we have to analyse, as to be able to end
playing last centuries political and economical game, and finally
start playing the twenty first century humanist game.
> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 22:32:10 +0200
> From: thijs.markus at piratenpartij.nl
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] The true core Pirates principles, -Serious attempt to get a workable consensus - TLDR version
> First: exactly, that means we are open to all influences, but by
> assimilating them without regard we create an internal balance between
> competing ideologies and have them filter one another out - the whole can
> then use that internal ideological component to evaluate it's proposals
> from a socialist or nazi perspective, and thus create proposals that are to
> the liking of everyone else. We win.
> We win because we have had all the debates, angles, counterproposals and
> arguements internally already, and whatever is left over is what everyone
> could agree on, and then so can the rest of the political parties. We
> cannot harvest this if we start to get ideological, there would be blind
> spots, the other parties would come with good points we've overlooked
> collectively cause they stem from a branch of ideology not presently
> We can very well play the game of politics just one level higher than the
> all the other parties - and make them redundant in the proces. After all
> politics is a form of information processing, and as far as manpower is
> concerned, I think we have a winning edge between the lot of us. All we
> need to do now is to find ways to make that advantage concrete. The rest is
> irrelevant - power, in the end, is a matter of activity - and we will
> spread that out over as many nodes as want to be involved, cause we will
> find ways to make that manpower count. Oh yes, I have plans.
> Your ideology & principles are in the way, playing last century's
> political game & will not leave us with any sort of advantage as a
> political party, nor will they change anything in the long run. Ideologies
> and principles come and go, what remains is the balance of power. We must
> use this opportunity to maximize the number of nodes involved in the flow
> of power - particulary around the area's where previously there were only a
> handfull, as around representatives in representative demcoracies. By doing
> their job for them. Better. Some 50, 60 thousand voters versus one
> representative - I think we can succeed brilliantly here.
> Second - might not be a bad idea actually, considering they're doing all
> the hard work around here, we might as well pay them for it. Socialism,
> like communism, does not seem to be rather a futile excercize without it
> spanning the globe.
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:49:47 +0200, Zbigniew Łukasiak <zzbbyy at gmail.com>
> > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 8:30 PM, <thijs.markus at piratenpartij.nl> wrote:
> >> Let's keep it more simple than a long list:
> >> Our core principle is: to make the decision that is most beneficial to
> >> most people over the longest term. The rest is circumstantial.
> > I am afraid this would not be very helpful, because of two things.
> > First - on some level this is something that everybody agrees about -
> > and thus it does not work for defining what Pirate Party is - for
> > differentiating it from any other party. And that is important,
> > because we need some group identity. Imagine that at some point
> > pirates become popular and that for example a socialist party changes
> > its name to Pirate Party - they agree with your utilitarian principle
> > - so I guess we should allow that, then a a nazist party, decides that
> > their program is also the most beneficial to most people (they just
> > define people in a different way), and you know.
> > Second - as a political principle it has the problem that the logical
> > consequence of it would be taxing the hell out of all developed
> > nations and transfer all that money to Africa, Latin America and Asia.
> > You would need a lot of rhetorical gymnastic to not come out as
> > hypocrite if you would not do that.
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
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