[pp.int.general] Remember remember...

seykron seykron at partidopirata.com.ar
Mon Jul 8 23:20:06 CEST 2013

Thanks for sharing your experience, Anouk, it is very appreciated.

Indeed, I wrote these thoughts taking into account we're living in a transitional
time between an old-fashioned politics and a new kind of social movement. As
usually happens in any transition, there exist a "tradition" trying to save the
current order and a new power promoting the breaking of that order. I think this
kind of "elastic period" is very confusing because old and new orders are mixing
them up to consolidate either the winning of tradition, or the rising of a new
paradigm. That's because being a pirate is quite confusing, and many people
immersed in the old paradigm will try to accomplish their own interests applying
over the pirate movement the same obsolete recipes.

But there are wind of changes (it began some time ago, there is a brilliant
paper describing the problem from the economical and political situation[1]), and
I cannot ignore the fact that the last two important changes in history were
during the first two decades of the century, and the fact that people is able to
organize mass protests in a short time period to complain about abuses headed by
goverments. I see goverments trying to fix a speech they can hardly maintain, and
I see groups like Anonymous publishing documents that are buried by political

That's because I think a "pirate party" is an accident, and it might not assume
the representation for thousand of people over the world which are asking for
real changes in social relationships and power distribution. That's because I
didn't define what the "treasure" is, it's something in the air. I encourage you
to keep working in the same direction and just ignore people that consider you a
troll. If you read Descartes or Kant right now, after several centuries, you
will note they sound quite childish. The same will happen to those that try to
force an old model to fit the new one.

There're a lot of work to do, there are people that's trying to survive and we
cannot get close to them speaking in terms of "changes", it doesn't work at all.
"Change" means nothing for the most people in the world. I don't figure out what
is the way, but nobody can deny something very tense is moving through the world.
Our reflections will be lost in the ocean of information until someone in the
future find it out to understand why "pirate parties failed" or why "goverments
spy us" or the best scenario, "how capitalism became obsolete". Comprehensive
experience documentation (a.k.a. reflection) is essential to understand the


[1] Claus Offe, Competitive party democracy and the Keynesian welfare state:
Factors of stability and disorganization, 1983. Here's the spanish version:
[2] http://bit.ly/15rhVCF

On 2013-07-08 09:03:02AM, Anouk wrote:
> Great piece Matias,
> I have 'analized'  the same, but my conclusion is much more simple. Too big
> are the ego's, too much oversimplified and generalized reasoning. And in
> the end no real social cohesion (not more then at an average houseparty
> until the booze runs out). The moment this 'treasure' involves ethical
> dilemmas instead of solving this there is plain denial (very powerfull
> ego-tool), walking away from it or infantile dogmas are used.
> Where are the (mental and emotional) grown-up pirates ?
> Fortunately everybody can call me a troll and we can keep on discussing on
> a childish level as usual.
> There is a basic difference between being naive or being infantile. This is
> the real challenge.
> Good luck with your reflections,
> by the way, getting kicked out of 'the group' is my middle name :) I
> challenge ALL 'group-thinking' on its errors, dogma and inconsistencies.
> And 'the group' NEVER likes this.  Getting rid of the abusive and
> manipulative egoists would heal the pirates, not more partying.
> anouk
>  On Jul 8, 2013 3:07 AM, "seykron" <seykron at partidopirata.com.ar> wrote:
> > I have been reading this maillist for a while, and I realized there're some
> > worries leading to tensions between several groups. I understand this is
> > the
> > nature of politics, because politics is made of tense relationships with
> > each
> > group wanting to win "something". To be more specific, in the deep under
> > discussions I can see the "identity problem" (sometimes very explicitly).
> > It's
> > a recurring problem because we're all human beings and we've got a
> > knowledge
> > base that defines us as subjects. So... here goes my question: is it
> > possible
> > to build a common identity in terms of politics?
> >
> > I've not got the answer, but I'd like to share some reflections with you.
> > If we
> > part from the basic premise that we all have different interests,
> > perspectives,
> > mindsets, and we accept it's almost impossible to put together these
> > elements,
> > perhaps we'll reach the heart of the problem. We are usually involved in
> > large
> > word fights to win rhetorical wars instead of figuring out the dissent and
> > trying to find a way out to reach an agreement. At this point, it's
> > impossible
> > to see the forest for the trees and it implicitly breaks something. But
> > that
> > "something" that is collapsing is the same thing that has previously
> > brought us
> > together for a reason, it is our cohesion key. I think the common identity
> > is
> > very close to that "something", and since we're pirates I'd like to call it
> > "treasure".
> >
> > The question is a challenge now: what's that treasure? Please, don't tell
> > me
> > that it doesn't belong to reality, it's more real that any proposal or
> > thought
> > because we're thinking, taking decisions and fighting for that unknown
> > treasure. If someone says "I'm not aware of such foolish things, I'm
> > trying to
> > make something real in Parliament" or "I'm not aware of such foolish
> > things,
> > I'm trying to make something real in the streets" without any criticism and
> > reflection about their own activity, it's signal of imminent loss of the
> > way to
> > the treasure, whatever it might be. Criticism without action is
> > meaningless,
> > action without self criticism is selfishness.
> >
> > What I do know is this treasure is very big and it requires a compromise
> > from
> > many different positions. I cannot understand all topics, but I trust in
> > other
> > pirates that understand those topics. That's why I do accept parliamentary
> > labour as well as social research, and that's why no matter what the
> > ideology of
> > the ones working in different topics is, I trust we all are looking for the
> > same treasure.
> >
> > Maybe we'll never define what the treasure is, maybe it's convenient to
> > leave
> > it undefined, but there're values around it: we already spoke about
> > participatory democracy, public transparency, free culture and knowledge
> > (in
> > terms of freedom), horizontality, respect, responsibility. I also think
> > personal
> > interests are essential to carry out jobs with passion. If someone likes
> > to make
> > money or think in alternative labour models is the same to me. An identity
> > is
> > something that is always changing and it is never completely defined, but
> > on the
> > other hand it has a very high consistency because of underlying values.
> > The key
> > question to validate whether someone is working for its own purpose or not
> > is
> > simple: how does your job brings us closer to the treasure?. No matter
> > how, if
> > that person is able to answer this simple question without doubts, it's a
> > pirate,
> > and if not, it's just another piece taken away for the estalishment.
> >
> > My message is it: get back to the roots, we're all human beings and we
> > have very
> > difficult relationships. Just accept that and let's drink a beer to laugh
> > about
> > our limitations. Learn lessons from history and your own errors, and be
> > honest
> > when your interests no longer fits the pirate way. Be scared of you, and
> > scared
> > of each other, everyone and nobody's looking at you. Your errors will be
> > saw by
> > thousand of people wanting to propose another way to do the same you're
> > doing,
> > if you cannot accept your mistake and let others help you, someone else
> > will make
> > it right and you will not longer be reliable: nobody and everyone will
> > kick you
> > out.-
> >
> > Matías
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
> >

> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general

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