[pp.int.general] Remember remember...

Thu Jul 11 23:25:24 CEST 2013

2013/7/11 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>

> You see the big picture... you want to dream of. It is a nice one.
>
> But you can't get there from present reality... unless you work within
> that reality.
>
> You don't.
>
>
did you read what we wrote? I assumed it was quite clear that we are
getting in contact with aborigens and poor people to lean about our present
reality.
Please.. read again!!

> You do not see the big picture, I'm afraid I have to tell you.
>
>
> And the fact that the majority does not see the big picture... is very bad
> when possible solutions have to be voted upon democratically.
>

> Then democracy becomes part of the problem.
>
>
ooh you mean this... read the email I just finished writting seconds ago,
and then  perhaps you`ll understand a little more how we, in Argentina are
trying to make democracy of all people to work.

What I do not understand is why you are in the pirate movement if you do
not believe in horizontality and democracy.
Well... perhaps after reading our carta organica, you`ll start to believe.
I`ll wait until you`ve read it.  Hope it changes your way of thinking
regarding this specific point.

And if your opinion does not changes, it also be usefull to read why you
think it will not work, so we can improve it even more.
Hope to read your opinion.

Betiel

PS: The dreams of today could become the facts of the future.

> Antonio.
>
>
>
> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:46:12 -0300
> From: seykron at partidopirata.com.ar
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Remember remember...
>
>
> Hi anouk. I think I wasn't clear enough. What I was trying to say is that current
> politics doesn't take into account that 2/3 of the world you mention. Labouring
> class and poor people are always hostages of capitalism and the State. I see how
> poor people is forced to vote certain parties and assist to political
> demonstrations to conserve an even poorly subsidy. I saw once how someone said to
> a poor unemployed guy "shut up, you cannot speak to him about it" when he tried
> to denounce the pressure. I see how part of this 2/3 of the world is convinced
> through advertising that it's better to buy things they don't need instead of
> more basic things they don't have. I see how children go to school to get some
> food and how they are trained to love the goverment instead of giving them a
> useful education to get out from their situation. I see how poverty destroys
> empathy and how it builds distorted relationships. This last one is the worst
> point to me: people are suffering because of very troublesome relationships based
> on issues they shouldn't have to be aware of. Say nothing of financial debts
> caused by ridiculous unsecured-loans interests (up to 60% here in Argentina). I
> could continue but I don't (let me know if you're interested in Argentina's
> situation, I could write a little review).
>
> So, you can dissent with me, but don't tell me I don't see the big picture. I'm
> not against businesses or commerce at all. However, I see how corporations (in
> every sense of the word, including the goverment) are modeling the society based
> on unreal values, far away from human values (whatever they'll be). Answering
> your question, that is what is wrong with capitalism to me. That's because I
> think being a "pirate" means to think out of the box, far away from the
> capitalist paradigm. Betiel exposed very clearly some of the goals we're trying
> to achieve in PPAr.
>
> Hope it clarified my point.
>
> Matías
>
>
> On 2013-07-11 05:18:24PM, Anouk wrote:
> > Hi Matias, I don't think you understood my message. I give it a last try.
> >
> > The last world war was also a transitional time  :p
> >
> > In your oversimplified generalisation, you only reason with the introvert
> > perspective of a typical middle class western world view.
> > You do not take in account the 2/3 of the rest of the world and assume what
> > is 'good' for them and everybody else. Have you ever considered asking the
> > really poor people what they really need?
> >
> > This fits the liniair thinking of theorists like Karl Marx, locked in their
> > library. meeting only friends that agree amongst themselves, writing
> > fiction about the world (and selling for profit?)
> >
> > So 1 communism only works in a world WITHOUT any nations/different states
> > !!! (hence purely theoretical)
> > And 2 what is wrong with capitalism ??? (other then examples of unethical
> > abuse of this principle, if I kill someone with a hammer, should we then
> > ban that same hammer ?!?)
> > 3 I could continue but I don't.
> >
> > I simply advise to do less utopian talk unless it is compared to a real
> > world situation.
> > That's all, keep up the good spirit,
> >
> > anouk.
> >
> >
> > On 8 July 2013 23:20, seykron <seykron at partidopirata.com.ar> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for sharing your experience, Anouk, it is very appreciated.
> > >
> > > Indeed, I wrote these thoughts taking into account we're living in a
> > > transitional
> > > time between an old-fashioned politics and a new kind of social movement.
> > > As
> > > usually happens in any transition, there exist a "tradition" trying to
> > > save the
> > > current order and a new power promoting the breaking of that order. I
> > > think this
> > > kind of "elastic period" is very confusing because old and new orders are
> > > mixing
> > > them up to consolidate either the winning of tradition, or the rising of a
> > > new
> > > paradigm. That's because being a pirate is quite confusing, and many people
> > > immersed in the old paradigm will try to accomplish their own interests
> > > applying
> > > over the pirate movement the same obsolete recipes.
> > >
> > > But there are wind of changes (it began some time ago, there is a brilliant
> > > paper describing the problem from the economical and political
> > > situation[1]), and
> > > I cannot ignore the fact that the last two important changes in history
> > > were
> > > during the first two decades of the century, and the fact that people is
> > > able to
> > > organize mass protests in a short time period to complain about abuses
> > > headed by
> > > goverments. I see goverments trying to fix a speech they can hardly
> > > maintain, and
> > > I see groups like Anonymous publishing documents that are buried by
> > > political
> > > parties[2].
> > >
> > > That's because I think a "pirate party" is an accident, and it might not
> > > assume
> > > the representation for thousand of people over the world which are asking
> > > for
> > > real changes in social relationships and power distribution. That's
> > > because I
> > > didn't define what the "treasure" is, it's something in the air. I
> > > encourage you
> > > to keep working in the same direction and just ignore people that consider
> > > you a
> > > troll. If you read Descartes or Kant right now, after several centuries,
> > > you
> > > will note they sound quite childish. The same will happen to those that
> > > try to
> > > force an old model to fit the new one.
> > >
> > > There're a lot of work to do, there are people that's trying to survive
> > > and we
> > > cannot get close to them speaking in terms of "changes", it doesn't work
> > > at all.
> > > "Change" means nothing for the most people in the world. I don't figure
> > > out what
> > > is the way, but nobody can deny something very tense is moving through the
> > > world.
> > > Our reflections will be lost in the ocean of information until someone in
> > > the
> > > future find it out to understand why "pirate parties failed" or why
> > > "goverments
> > > spy us" or the best scenario, "how capitalism became obsolete".
> > > Comprehensive
> > > experience documentation (a.k.a. reflection) is essential to understand the
> > > future.
> > >
> > > Matías
> > >
> > >
> > > [1] Claus Offe, Competitive party democracy and the Keynesian welfare
> > > state:
> > > Factors of stability and disorganization, 1983. Here's the spanish version:
> > > http://bit.ly/14FRoPH
> > > [2] http://bit.ly/15rhVCF
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2013-07-08 09:03:02AM, Anouk wrote:
> > > > Great piece Matias,
> > > >
> > > > I have 'analized'  the same, but my conclusion is much more simple. Too
> > > big
> > > > are the ego's, too much oversimplified and generalized reasoning. And in
> > > > the end no real social cohesion (not more then at an average houseparty
> > > > until the booze runs out). The moment this 'treasure' involves ethical
> > > > dilemmas instead of solving this there is plain denial (very powerfull
> > > > ego-tool), walking away from it or infantile dogmas are used.
> > > >
> > > > Where are the (mental and emotional) grown-up pirates ?
> > > >
> > > > Fortunately everybody can call me a troll and we can keep on discussing
> > > on
> > > > a childish level as usual.
> > > >
> > > > There is a basic difference between being naive or being infantile. This
> > > is
> > > > the real challenge.
> > > > Good luck with your reflections,
> > > >
> > > > by the way, getting kicked out of 'the group' is my middle name :) I
> > > > challenge ALL 'group-thinking' on its errors, dogma and inconsistencies.
> > > > And 'the group' NEVER likes this.  Getting rid of the abusive and
> > > > manipulative egoists would heal the pirates, not more partying.
> > > >
> > > > anouk
> > > >  On Jul 8, 2013 3:07 AM, "seykron" <seykron at partidopirata.com.ar> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I have been reading this maillist for a while, and I realized there're
> > > some
> > > > > worries leading to tensions between several groups. I understand this
> > > is
> > > > > the
> > > > > nature of politics, because politics is made of tense relationships
> > > with
> > > > > each
> > > > > group wanting to win "something". To be more specific, in the deep
> > > under
> > > > > discussions I can see the "identity problem" (sometimes very
> > > explicitly).
> > > > > It's
> > > > > a recurring problem because we're all human beings and we've got a
> > > > > knowledge
> > > > > base that defines us as subjects. So... here goes my question: is it
> > > > > possible
> > > > > to build a common identity in terms of politics?
> > > > >
> > > > > I've not got the answer, but I'd like to share some reflections with
> > > you.
> > > > > If we
> > > > > part from the basic premise that we all have different interests,
> > > > > perspectives,
> > > > > mindsets, and we accept it's almost impossible to put together these
> > > > > elements,
> > > > > perhaps we'll reach the heart of the problem. We are usually involved
> > > in
> > > > > large
> > > > > word fights to win rhetorical wars instead of figuring out the dissent
> > > and
> > > > > trying to find a way out to reach an agreement. At this point, it's
> > > > > impossible
> > > > > to see the forest for the trees and it implicitly breaks something. But
> > > > > that
> > > > > "something" that is collapsing is the same thing that has previously
> > > > > brought us
> > > > > together for a reason, it is our cohesion key. I think the common
> > > identity
> > > > > is
> > > > > very close to that "something", and since we're pirates I'd like to
> > > call it
> > > > > "treasure".
> > > > >
> > > > > The question is a challenge now: what's that treasure? Please, don't
> > > tell
> > > > > me
> > > > > that it doesn't belong to reality, it's more real that any proposal or
> > > > > thought
> > > > > because we're thinking, taking decisions and fighting for that unknown
> > > > > treasure. If someone says "I'm not aware of such foolish things, I'm
> > > > > trying to
> > > > > make something real in Parliament" or "I'm not aware of such foolish
> > > > > things,
> > > > > I'm trying to make something real in the streets" without any
> > > criticism and
> > > > > reflection about their own activity, it's signal of imminent loss of
> > > the
> > > > > way to
> > > > > the treasure, whatever it might be. Criticism without action is
> > > > > meaningless,
> > > > > action without self criticism is selfishness.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I do know is this treasure is very big and it requires a
> > > compromise
> > > > > from
> > > > > many different positions. I cannot understand all topics, but I trust
> > > in
> > > > > other
> > > > > pirates that understand those topics. That's why I do accept
> > > parliamentary
> > > > > labour as well as social research, and that's why no matter what the
> > > > > ideology of
> > > > > the ones working in different topics is, I trust we all are looking
> > > for the
> > > > > same treasure.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe we'll never define what the treasure is, maybe it's convenient to
> > > > > leave
> > > > > it undefined, but there're values around it: we already spoke about
> > > > > participatory democracy, public transparency, free culture and
> > > knowledge
> > > > > (in
> > > > > terms of freedom), horizontality, respect, responsibility. I also think
> > > > > personal
> > > > > interests are essential to carry out jobs with passion. If someone
> > > likes
> > > > > to make
> > > > > money or think in alternative labour models is the same to me. An
> > > identity
> > > > > is
> > > > > something that is always changing and it is never completely defined,
> > > but
> > > > > on the
> > > > > other hand it has a very high consistency because of underlying values.
> > > > > The key
> > > > > question to validate whether someone is working for its own purpose or
> > > not
> > > > > is
> > > > > simple: how does your job brings us closer to the treasure?. No matter
> > > > > how, if
> > > > > that person is able to answer this simple question without doubts,
> > > it's a
> > > > > pirate,
> > > > > and if not, it's just another piece taken away for the estalishment.
> > > > >
> > > > > My message is it: get back to the roots, we're all human beings and we
> > > > > have very
> > > > > difficult relationships. Just accept that and let's drink a beer to
> > > laugh
> > > > > about
> > > > > our limitations. Learn lessons from history and your own errors, and be
> > > > > honest
> > > > > when your interests no longer fits the pirate way. Be scared of you,
> > > and
> > > > > scared
> > > > > of each other, everyone and nobody's looking at you. Your errors will
> > > be
> > > > > saw by
> > > > > thousand of people wanting to propose another way to do the same you're
> > > > > doing,
> > > > > if you cannot accept your mistake and let others help you, someone else
> > > > > will make
> > > > > it right and you will not longer be reliable: nobody and everyone will
> > > > > kick you
> > > > > out.-
> > > > >
> > > > > Matías
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________________________________________________
> > > > > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > > > > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > > > > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > ____________________________________________________
> > > > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > > > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > > > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________________
> > > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >
> > >
>
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
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