[pp.int.general] pp.international.general Digest, Vol 76, Issue 65

Galileo Galilei otrosmundos at gmail.com
Mon Jun 17 13:39:19 CEST 2013 

That's a good point to discuss... Let's argue why you think about that
kind of censorship.

In my opinion, what you think is censorship are good manners, and it
is one of our social skills needed not to become barbarians. Nothing
to do with exposing whatever you want.

You can expose what you think without saying noone he/she is stupid,
If you fail  with it you are no more than a bullying aggressor. No
point you thik it is an exagerated comparision. People could not say
why they think only for not beeing bullyed, and that's another kind of
censorship more disrespectful and hateful in my opinion.

Be free to give your opinion, all of you. It is necessary everyone
shows their own opinion for not having misunderstandings.


2013/6/17, pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net
<pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net>:
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: pp.international.general Digest, Vol 76,	Issue 61 (Betiel)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 07:40:12 -0300
> From: Betiel <betielix at gmail.com>
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> 	<pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] pp.international.general Digest, Vol 76,
> 	Issue 61
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAGhMhD3EdQkGW__a3odoCLiY8SO_1H9qKZYGh1BB40Ct-YKtbQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I totally agree with this you wrote:
>
>
> "This global group is useless if we are not informed of were is going
> to be a new pirate election, or what we can do for helping from the
> other part of the world. This group is useless if noone gives an idea
> of what to do in things like Manning or Anonymous, and seems that is
> waiting reactions from national pirates. This group has nothing to do
> if he cannot control which parties exist, in their totallity,
> including their pages and having a public location for those
> directions of all the movement. In an easy way for all kind of
> visitors."
>
> I prefer to focus on this and not in censorship on the list. Perhaps if we
> have a clear target we can avoid start insulting each other. At least I
> hope that.
> Another thing we can do is everytime we write an email is asking ourselves:
> Is this mails useful to the PPI? If the answer is not, then delete it or
> rewrite our mail into one that is.
>
>
>
> 2013/6/17 Galileo Galilei <otrosmundos at gmail.com>
>
>> I barely never write in the list but, after all what's happenin' i
>> want to give my opinion 'bout some points:
>>
>> -Antonio is a clever man, but with a very interiorized Mesiah Complex
>> where he thinks he is the only one who can lead the movement and his
>> own reasonings are the only ones that are right. But, If you analyze a
>> bit any of them, what he is always saying it is only a junk pack of
>> preacher's talk without any solutions but a lot of fails and demagogic
>> mistakes. He has only two arguments in his constant speech. We are in
>> a Kindergarden and that's all fault of the Massive Dinamics. While he
>> can be right or not, he is puting it's own massive dinamic on it so he
>> is failing in the same mistake he wants to repair. And the Playground
>> question it is because he cannot admit in either way, any other person
>> is right in nothing, so, in his messianic mind, we are child and we
>> dont' know nothing. So he is never going to do nothing for themovement
>> except to protest and insult the others, and in his mind, that's a way
>> to make us evolve Those things makes him become the most noisy troll
>> we have in all the movement.
>>
>> I dont't care about his trollness thing, he is free to say we are
>> incompetent, but i care about respect and freedom in saying whatever
>> you want to say, with respect. I think it is the only point we have to
>> care, and that's not censhorship.. I don't think it is a need to
>> insult noone or to fail in respecting him/her because you can. If you
>> are smart, you don't need it. So I need a moderate rating only in that
>> purpose, that i thought it was a must be in whatever we defend. So i
>> suggest to moderate insults and unrespectful episodes.
>>
>> After that, I have to criticice the movement itself. It is true that
>> int is becoming something too much institucional and without a good
>> time reacting. It barely does what it's been created, to help their
>> members to grow, to react on whatever the movement has to say
>> something, to communicate between it's members.
>>
>> This global group is useless if we are not informed of were is going
>> to be a new pirate election, or what we can do for helping from the
>> other part of the world. This group is useless if noone gives an idea
>> of what to do in things like Manning or Anonymous, and seems that is
>> waiting reactions from national pirates. This group has nothing to do
>> if he cannot control which parties exist, in their totallity,
>> including their pages and having a public location for those
>> directions of all the movement. In an easy way for all kind of
>> visitors.
>>
>> We need a large talk about our future for becoming more visible and
>> efficient, and whatever it is in the list is not the problem, the
>> problem begins with organization.
>>
>> 2013/6/17, pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net
>> <pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net>:
>> > Send pp.international.general mailing list submissions to
>> >       pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >       pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >       pp.international.general-owner at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of pp.international.general digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> >    1. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Francisco George)
>> >    2. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Antonio Garcia)
>> >    3. A small sample of what is happening is Brazil
>> >       (SecretariaGeral Piratas)
>> >    4. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Fr?d?ric JOUVIN)
>> >    5. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Zbigniew ?ukasiak)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200
>> > From: Francisco George <francisco.george at gmail.com>
>> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
>> > Message-ID:
>> >       <CANfKYYzL=
>> EzZExSSp5XaF8N8vW0Hi8RBiLCSUN5C+Nx2NEW6Uw at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> > Dear Antonio,
>> >
>> > As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are OUT
>> of
>> > our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your
>> > return
>> > as you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten
>> > argument when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to
>> evolve.
>> >
>> > Best regards
>> > Francisco George
>> > Member of the PP-ES Board
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL:
>> > <
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20130616/0fa4ecb6/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:43:39 +0000
>> > From: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
>> > Message-ID: <DUB119-W64986C9712183379FF879DC820 at phx.gbl>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> > Let me guess? You ain't telling me :) .
>> >
>> > Please, please very much... do evolve.
>> >
>> >
>> > Antonio.
>> >
>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200
>> > From: francisco.george at gmail.com
>> > To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
>> >
>> > Dear Antonio,
>> >
>> > As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are OUT
>> of
>> > our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your
>> return as
>> > you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten
>> > argument
>> > when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to evolve.
>> >
>> >
>> > Best regards
>> >
>> > Francisco George
>> >
>> > Member of the PP-ES Board
>> >
>> >
>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL:
>> > <
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20130616/9682d5f3/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 23:14:57 -0300
>> > From: SecretariaGeral Piratas <secretariageral at partidopirata.org>
>> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> > Subject: [pp.int.general] A small sample of what is happening is
>> >       Brazil
>> > Message-ID:
>> >       <
>> CAF_PSNMrKNrkNFzH6pdyU71QPVF0uAvD3fks6pDrMOSzFEab+g at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> > ... in case you were wondering:
>> >
>> https://www.facebook.com/notes/ppbr-partido-pirata-do-brasil/nota-do-partido-pirata-do-brasil-sobre-as-manifesta%C3%A7%C3%B5es-decorrentes-do-aumento-d/632006643493515
>> >
>> > People kneeling on the floor with their hands in the air were being
>> > shot
>> at
>> > almost point-blank with rubber bullets, on their faces. Expired tear
>> > gas
>> > shells were shot.
>> >
>> > Press was attacked as well, arrested. One reporter was shot in the eye
>> and
>> > is blind, another one almost got blind.
>> >
>> > Police seizing vinegar from protesters and press so they cannot protect
>> > themselves from the effects of tear gas and pepper spray. And so on.
>> >
>> >  And it?s spreading around the country. Police abuse in S?o Paulo last
>> > week, police abuse yesterday in Brasilia, police abuse today in Rio de
>> > Janeiro. And many, many other cities.
>> >
>> > FIFA Confederations Cup began in Brazil. Government created no-protest
>> > no-expression exception zones around the country, so things will get
>> > rougher.
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL:
>> > <
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20130616/815f9849/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 4
>> > Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 08:33:44 +0200
>> > From: Fr?d?ric JOUVIN <frederic.jouvin at gmail.com>
>> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> > Cc: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
>> > Message-ID: <90E5775F-11A1-4A68-956D-2552CF1B0FBF at gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Hi Antonio.
>> >
>> > I am here to bring you my full support, from my PP FR personnal
>> > disaster
>> > experience.
>> >
>> > I loved particularily loved one of your declarations :
>> >
>> > "PPI is becoming another damn USA governmentlike corporate entity,
>> counting
>> > on all the children to unwittingly make up the big controlled mass."
>> >
>> > I've read some of your emails, and mostly agree with all what you are
>> > stating.
>> >
>> > Regarding the most important problems I saw in France at PP FR is that
>> they
>> > are good at :
>> >
>> > - Spending all their energy and time in doing things that will not
>> > change
>> > the future at all, not even help spreading our voice and values.
>> > Indeed,
>> > every time somebody wants to build a project that could have an impact
>> > on
>> > something, this guy is charged by a clearly "nasayer" identified group
>> that
>> > will pull it out of the party.
>> >
>> > - Too much infiltrations from some governement agencies into the party
>> > itself, so much that real cypherpunks and hacktivists are clearly
>> > adviced
>> > not to go to the PP FR if they do not want to get into serious
>> > troubles.
>> >
>> > - They clearly did all what they could to in the end not support
>> > bradley
>> > manning, assange, etc. They hardly fake their support to the cypherpunk
>> > values and goals. They never want to really support any true
>> > hacktivists
>> > event. They don't like the Anon familly and so on. I had to fight like
>> > nobody could believe about bradley manning.
>> >
>> > - They don't want to talk about philosophy and values of the
>> > cypherpunks.
>> >
>> > To me, they defend the current system and statut quo, and they don't
>> give a
>> > fuck about cypherpunks and crypto-anarchists values and revolution.
>> >
>> > And yes, to me, it's leading to nowhere.
>> > They are here just to make people loose their time.
>> >
>> > Of course, they are some real and honnest pirates in this party, but
>> > it's
>> > like they have lost influence, and power, and they can't spread the
>> > good
>> > words and love in this party any longer.
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------
>> > Le 16 juin 2013 ? 20:43, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> a
>> ?crit :
>> >
>> >> Let me guess? You ain't telling me :) .
>> >>
>> >> Please, please very much... do evolve.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Antonio.
>> >>
>> >> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200
>> >> From: francisco.george at gmail.com
>> >> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
>> >>
>> >> Dear Antonio,
>> >> As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are
>> >> OUT
>> of
>> >> our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your
>> return
>> >> as you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten
>> >> argument when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to
>> >> evolve.
>> >> Best regards
>> >> Francisco George
>> >> Member of the PP-ES Board
>> >>
>> >> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
>> >> International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >> ____________________________________________________
>> >> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> >> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL:
>> > <
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20130617/64e4d5c8/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 5
>> > Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:00:49 +0200
>> > From: Zbigniew ?ukasiak <zzbbyy at gmail.com>
>> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
>> > Message-ID:
>> >       <
>> CAGL_UUthiUUL0Mt6UmYx60AZ6kWMZRrS1NMEfw7u2pMg50WW7w at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Fr?d?ric JOUVIN
>> > <frederic.jouvin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Hi Antonio.
>> >>
>> >> I am here to bring you my full support, from my PP FR personnal
>> >> disaster
>> >> experience.
>> >>
>> >> I loved particularily loved one of your declarations :
>> >>
>> >> "PPI is becoming another damn USA governmentlike corporate entity,
>> >> counting
>> >> on all the children to unwittingly make up the big controlled mass."
>> >>
>> >> I've read some of your emails, and mostly agree with all what you are
>> >> stating.
>> >>
>> >> Regarding the most important problems I saw in France at PP FR is that
>> >> they
>> >> are good at :
>> >>
>> >> - Spending all their energy and time in doing things that will not
>> change
>> >> the future at all, not even help spreading our voice and values.
>> >> Indeed,
>> >> every time somebody wants to build a project that could have an impact
>> on
>> >> something, this guy is charged by a clearly "nasayer" identified group
>> >> that
>> >> will pull it out of the party.
>> >>
>> >> - Too much infiltrations from some governement agencies into the party
>> >> itself, so much that real cypherpunks and hacktivists are clearly
>> adviced
>> >> not to go to the PP FR if they do not want to get into serious
>> >> troubles.
>> >>
>> >> - They clearly did all what they could to in the end not support
>> >> bradley
>> >> manning, assange, etc. They hardly fake their support to the
>> >> cypherpunk
>> >> values and goals. They never want to really support any true
>> >> hacktivists
>> >> event. They don't like the Anon familly and so on. I had to fight like
>> >> nobody could believe about bradley manning.
>> >>
>> >> - They don't want to talk about philosophy and values of the
>> cypherpunks.
>> >>
>> >> To me, they defend the current system and statut quo, and they don't
>> give
>> >> a
>> >> fuck about cypherpunks and crypto-anarchists values and revolution.
>> >>
>> >> And yes, to me, it's leading to nowhere.
>> >> They are here just to make people loose their time.
>> >>
>> >> Of course, they are some real and honnest pirates in this party, but
>> it's
>> >> like they have lost influence, and power, and they can't spread the
>> >> good
>> >> words and love in this party any longer.
>> >
>> > I can understand your frustration - but unfortunately I don't know too
>> > much about the French pirates - so I cannot discuss that part of your
>> > email.
>> >
>> > As to your support for Antonio Garcia - does that mean that you
>> > believe that one person should have the right to dominate this mailing
>> > list by an avalanche of emails?  I don't.  Personally I also find
>> > these emails frequently void of any new content and filled with the
>> > same expressions of his frustration.  This boring and also frustrating
>> > to read this over and over again, but I would not complain on that,
>> > because it is hard to draw a line here and decide who is boring and
>> > repeating.  What is more objective and easier to judge is the sheer
>> > amount of text he sends to this list - this is like shouting in a
>> > meeting - effectively making other voices inaudible and this is not
>> > democratic.  I have the feeling he does not want to take us as his
>> > peers - but rather beat us into submission by his writing.  I don't
>> > find this kind of action acceptable.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Zbigniew
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------
>> >> Le 16 juin 2013 ? 20:43, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> a
>> ?crit
>> >> :
>> >>
>> >> Let me guess? You ain't telling me :) .
>> >>
>> >> Please, please very much... do evolve.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Antonio.
>> >>
>> >> ________________________________
>> >> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200
>> >> From: francisco.george at gmail.com
>> >> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
>> >>
>> >> Dear Antonio,
>> >> As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are
>> >> OUT
>> >> of
>> >> our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your
>> return
>> >> as
>> >> you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten
>> argument
>> >> when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to evolve.
>> >> Best regards
>> >> Francisco George
>> >> Member of the PP-ES Board
>> >>
>> >> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
>> >> International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >>
>> >> ____________________________________________________
>> >> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> >> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ____________________________________________________
>> >> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> >> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Zbigniew Lukasiak
>> > http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
>> > http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > pp.international.general mailing list
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >
>> >
>> > End of pp.international.general Digest, Vol 76, Issue 61
>> > ********************************************************
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Natural e Inconfundible :)"
>> "La informatica es una competici?n entre los ingenieros del software,
>> que tratan de crear mejores programas a prueba de tontos; y el
>> Universo, que trata de crear mejores tontos. Por ahora el Universo va
>> ganando..."
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
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> pp.international.general mailing list
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
> End of pp.international.general Digest, Vol 76, Issue 65
> ********************************************************
>


-- 
"Natural e Inconfundible :)"
"La informatica es una competición entre los ingenieros del software,
que tratan de crear mejores programas a prueba de tontos; y el
Universo, que trata de crear mejores tontos. Por ahora el Universo va
ganando..."

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