[pp.int.general] consensus experiment
seykron
seykron at partidopirata.com.ar
Thu May 15 14:33:32 CEST 2014
Great idea!
I did create a PAD to work on this proposal (aka collect communication
channels):
http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/CommunicationChannels
Josef, could you add all communication channels you know? And could you
send the pad to other people that may know about more communication
channels?
Thanks!
Matías
On Thu, 15 May 2014 11:20:09 +0200
Josef Ohlsson Collentine <international at piratpartiet.se> wrote:
> Hi Zbigniew,
>
> agree but first step is always doing inventory of current channels.
>
> There's already a plethora of mailing-lists, facebook groups, ppi work
> groups etc
>
> Several of which have tried doing part of what you want. Would be more
> useful if someone had the possibility of listing all of them and we
> could start analyzing where they went wrong before we start "yet
> another" mail list.
>
> Kindly,
> Josef
>
> *International Contact for PPSE*
> Contact me for any questions/concerns or if you need to get hold of
> someone in Piratpartiet or internationally.
>
> *Other contact:*
> mail: international at piratpartiet.se
> Twitter: @collentine
> Skype: josef.ohlsson.collentine (only important conversations)
> Cel: +46 73 824 9849 (text me, if urgent)
>
>
> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:22 PM, <
> pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net> wrote:
>
> > Send pp.international.general mailing list submissions to
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
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> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Worrying tendency regarding our message board policies
> > (Antonio Garcia)
> > 2. A consensus experiment as a partial answer to the Pirate
> > Communication Problem. (Zbigniew ?ukasiak)
> > 3. Re: A consensus experiment as a partial answer to the Pirate
> > Communication Problem. (Antonio Garcia)
> > 4. Re: [pp-leaders.discussion] Fwd: Still missing 8/11 board
> > reports from the last PPI board + alternate members (Koen De
> > Voegt)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 10:15:32 +0000
> > From: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> > <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>, "
> > hyazinthe at emailn.de"
> > <hyazinthe at emailn.de>
> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Worrying tendency regarding our
> > message board policies
> > Message-ID: <DUB119-W51F9EC7ACB25BC00CD92F8DC370 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Too late for that, my dear...
> >
> >
> > http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/
> >
> >
> > Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 03:01:10 +0200
> > From: evilteddyxl at gmail.com
> > To: hyazinthe at emailn.de;
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net Subject: Re:
> > [pp.int.general] Worrying tendency regarding our message board
> > policies
> >
> > Fully agreed and I notice this development too. In The Netherlands
> > there are strong advocates of similar measures, but luckily these
> > measures have not been put into effect yet *officially* (and as
> > such, are not enforced or widely employed at all).
> >
> > For me, a pirate party is not about gaining seats or getting into
> > city councils. It is about achieving our ideals. I don't care if
> > that's through getting into legislature bodies through elections,
> > or spreading awareness amongst the people, or through setting up
> > protests. I don't care at all. The core of it always is that we
> > want to have certain ideals be embedded into law and into
> > governmental and economic conduct. There are various ways to do
> > this, none being strongly better than the other. Each have their
> > cons and pros.
> >
> > As one of our core ideals is openness, transparancy and such, we
> > should also employ this into the Pirate Party itself. Having no
> > proper public lists is directly in violation of this core
> > principle. If we abandon this core principle, it is a slippery
> > slope which will eventually make us no different than the generic
> > yet another political party.
> >
> > There will always be trollls. Just learn to live with the flaming
> > wars or shitstorms they cause periodically. And when worried about
> > leaking abuses of power or such to public lists (I have done so
> > several times, in one case even receiving threats of various
> > magnitudes including a very nice piece of paper filled with threats
> > in legal jargon from the board which i immediatelly consigned to no
> > more value as toilet paper.), the first thing you should consider
> > then that when there are no abuses taking place, they can't be
> > leaked to the public lists (or even for that matter, the press,
> > which is generally even more undesirable).
> >
> > Keep in mind that if you don't adhere to core principles, you are
> > bound to fail as a pirate party, since people will eventually see
> > that you are no different than the others. Lets try to prevent that
> > from happening.
> >
> > -- RobertoElected member of the Dutch Pirate Party member council.
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 13:07:46 +0200
> > From: Zbigniew ?ukasiak <zzbbyy at gmail.com>
> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> > <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> > Subject: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial answer
> > to the Pirate Communication Problem.
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > CAGL_UUuzCKi0nFu224bcrbRBnFcZPbZnNO2U3GZdcn1P+XYWmA at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > Copied from the workpad at:
> > http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/ConsensusExperiment
> >
> >
> > # Problem
> > (http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/PirateCommunicationProblem)
> >
> > There is a severe deficiency of communication between the pirate
> > parties:
> >
> > * at the General Assemblies of PPI we don't have enough time to talk
> > about everything
> >
> > * the general mailing list does not work - because lack of rules
> > makes the discussion chaotic
> >
> > * the leaders mailing list and Liquid Feedback setup by Nuno look
> > desert
> >
> > * the local forums are often locked down now
> >
> > ## Proposal 1: consensus deliberative group experiment (zby)
> >
> > A consensus based deliberative group (committee?) that would gather
> > opinions
> > from all pirate parties and work on what is the common core among
> > them.
> >
> > It will be immediately useful for:
> >
> > * organizing coordinated actions (mostly protests, but also actions
> > like welcoming Snowden etc.)
> >
> > * working on common program core (the European common core program
> > is very useful for small parties and it should be copied worldwide)
> >
> > * making common declarations
> >
> > * maybe working on PPI statutes
> >
> > After we get it running we can also work on more difficult stuff
> > like establishing what it really means to be a pirate party.
> >
> > ### Known issues
> >
> > To get there we need to meet two conflicting requirements.
> >
> > * The group cannot be too big - so that we can work with the
> > classical consensus protocol (based on ideas like:
> > http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html),
> > and it needs to have a well defined boundary (rule #1 in 8 rules for
> > governance of the commons by Ostrom
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom ). I think the Dunbar
> > Number that is 120 would make a hard limit.
> >
> > * and it needs to include at least participants from all
> > (legitimate) pirate parties
> >
> > ### Plan
> >
> > All more concrete rules would be established by the group
> > itself. I believe that if we make good rules we can avoid the
> > problems that afflict the other communication channels. We can
> > start using emails and pads - and then choose our own communication
> > infrastructure.
> >
> > All this will require some work from all participants - we need
> > volunteers that can regularly dedicate some of their time to
> > communicate with the group and with local parties and work on the
> > issues.
> >
> > Anyone interested?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Zbigniew Lukasiak
> > http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
> > http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 11:14:34 +0000
> > From: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> > <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial
> > answer to the Pirate Communication Problem.
> > Message-ID: <DUB119-W2535E309F9739351178594DC370 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > After
> > http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/finally
> > finds a proper and decent solution.
> >
> > Before, anything anybody tries will be utterly pointless.
> >
> > Because WE all have been playing with ALL our CORE VALUES
> > recklessly... there.
> >
> >
> > Antonio.
> >
> > > Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 13:07:46 +0200
> > > From: zzbbyy at gmail.com
> > > To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > > Subject: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial
> > > answer to
> > the Pirate Communication Problem.
> > >
> > > Copied from the workpad at:
> > > http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/ConsensusExperiment
> > >
> > >
> > > # Problem (
> > http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/PirateCommunicationProblem)
> > >
> > > There is a severe deficiency of communication between the pirate
> > > parties:
> > >
> > > * at the General Assemblies of PPI we don't have enough time to
> > > talk about everything
> > >
> > > * the general mailing list does not work - because lack of rules
> > > makes
> > the
> > > discussion chaotic
> > >
> > > * the leaders mailing list and Liquid Feedback setup by Nuno look
> > > desert
> > >
> > > * the local forums are often locked down now
> > >
> > > ## Proposal 1: consensus deliberative group experiment (zby)
> > >
> > > A consensus based deliberative group (committee?) that would
> > > gather
> > opinions
> > > from all pirate parties and work on what is the common core among
> > > them.
> > >
> > > It will be immediately useful for:
> > >
> > > * organizing coordinated actions (mostly protests, but also
> > > actions like welcoming Snowden etc.)
> > >
> > > * working on common program core (the European common core
> > > program is very useful for small parties and it should be copied
> > > worldwide)
> > >
> > > * making common declarations
> > >
> > > * maybe working on PPI statutes
> > >
> > > After we get it running we can also work on more difficult stuff
> > > like establishing what it really means to be a pirate party.
> > >
> > > ### Known issues
> > >
> > > To get there we need to meet two conflicting requirements.
> > >
> > > * The group cannot be too big - so that we can work with the
> > > classical consensus protocol (based on ideas like:
> > > http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html),
> > > and it needs to have a well defined boundary (rule #1 in 8 rules
> > > for governance of the commons by Ostrom
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom ). I think the Dunbar
> > > Number that is 120 would make a hard limit.
> > >
> > > * and it needs to include at least participants from all
> > > (legitimate) pirate parties
> > >
> > > ### Plan
> > >
> > > All more concrete rules would be established by the group
> > > itself. I believe that if we make good rules we can avoid the
> > > problems that afflict the other communication channels. We can
> > > start using emails and pads - and then choose our own
> > > communication infrastructure.
> > >
> > > All this will require some work from all participants - we need
> > > volunteers that can regularly dedicate some of their time to
> > > communicate with the group and with local parties and work on the
> > > issues.
> > >
> > > Anyone interested?
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Zbigniew Lukasiak
> > > http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
> > > http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
> > > ____________________________________________________
> > > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 18:23:02 +0200
> > From: Koen De Voegt <koen.devoegt at antwerpsepiraten.be>
> > To: Paul Bossu <paul at pirateparty.be>, Josef Ohlsson Collentine
> > <international at piratpartiet.se>
> > Cc: "pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net"
> > <pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net>,
> > Pirate Parties
> > International -- General Talk
> > <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] [pp-leaders.discussion] Fwd: Still
> > missing 8/11 board reports from the last PPI board +
> > alternate members
> > Message-ID: <53739866.6010109 at antwerpsepiraten.be>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your report Paul. Believe me we are trying to fix PPI.
> > This is not an easy task and will take some time. More then I would
> > like. I would like to note to everyone that doesn't like the way
> > PPI is running should take up responsibility in trying to fix the
> > matters instead of just giving criticism.
> >
> > Everyone feel free to propose any solution you are willing to
> > implement to help PPI get back on track!
> >
> > Koen
> >
> > op 12-05-14 14:43, Paul Bossu schreef:
> > > here is my opinion : http://piratepad.be/p/ppiboard
> > >
> > > *_PPI Alternate Board Member (2nd) - Report_*
> > >
> > > As asked by Joseph, here is my rapport of 2nd alternate board
> > > member
> > >
> > > When i was candidate in april 2013 it was because form many
> > > pirates, PPI is nothing and do nothing.
> > >
> > > So i was alected 2nd alternate BM, in cas of problem with one of
> > > the elected board member.
> > >
> > > I've do some mumble meeting at the beginning but as expected, it
> > > was totally not interesting and most of the time speaking
> > >
> > > I was not eh first one on the alternate list so i was also
> > > discuissing with Jelena (1st alternate)
> > >
> > > I was clearly not more candidate for any position at PPi this year
> > > because i found this organisation totally unrelevant and working
> > > as a little circle of people who just wantr to have the tittle of
> > > "chair person of world pirates" or just want to say they are "PPI
> > > Board Member
> > >
> > > So after two or three mont of this non productive meetings, i was
> > > just following the mailing (board at ppi) and mailing list
> > >
> > > You know, PPI is Gregory Engel's club for him and his friends ...
> > > and th'at's all
> > >
> > > If after 4 years it's always the same people representing
> > > pirates of the world ... (Gregory Engels and his close
> > > friends.)... i suppose everyopne on earth can understand where
> > > the problem is
> > >
> > > *Pirately yours and ... "PPI, never again '"*
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > --
> > > *Paul Bossu*
> > > **
> > > Board Member @PiratesBelgium <http://lepartipirate.be/about> |
> > > Board Member @EuropeanPirates <http://www.europeanpirates.eu/>
> > > Linked In Profile <http://be.linkedin.com/in/paulbossu>| @Popol349
> > > <https://twitter.com/Popol349%E2%80%8E> | www.god2014.be
> > > <http://god2014.be/> | +32 494 28 35 28
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > pp-leaders.discussion mailing list
> > > pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net
> > > http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-leaders.discussion
> >
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pp.international.general mailing list
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
> >
> > End of pp.international.general Digest, Vol 87, Issue 11
> > ********************************************************
> >
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