[pp.int.general] consensus experiment
seykron
seykron at partidopirata.com.ar
Thu May 15 20:24:15 CEST 2014
+1, I agree with your proposal and I merged it with the original one. I
made some comments based on Betiel's email.
Matías
On Thu, 15 May 2014 16:48:07 +0200
Andreas Czák <Sonstwer at piratenpartei.at> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I've posted a counter proposal in your pad
>
> http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/CommunicationChannels
>
>
>
> #Counter Proposal:
>
> Identify the interests of local pirate organisations (and people)
> create channels based on the same interests
> -> leads to international working groups on specific tasks
> -> reduces the information overflow on coordinators
> -> makes it easier to work on specific tasks and topics rather than
> having to read ALL the international communication
>
> Reason for me is: There're sooo many mails and i'm not able to read
> them all in order to get things done we must split communication
> based on topics, doing so will enable more pirates to work together
> on the things they're interested in
>
> Greets
> Andreas "Sonstwer" Czák
> #PPAT - Member of the intl. Delegates - Pirate Party Austria
> @Sonstwer
>
>
> Am 15.05.2014 14:33, schrieb seykron:
> > Great idea!
> >
> > I did create a PAD to work on this proposal (aka collect
> > communication channels):
> >
> > http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/CommunicationChannels
> >
> > Josef, could you add all communication channels you know? And could
> > you send the pad to other people that may know about more
> > communication channels?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Matías
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 15 May 2014 11:20:09 +0200
> > Josef Ohlsson Collentine <international at piratpartiet.se> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Zbigniew,
> >>
> >> agree but first step is always doing inventory of current channels.
> >>
> >> There's already a plethora of mailing-lists, facebook groups, ppi
> >> work groups etc
> >>
> >> Several of which have tried doing part of what you want. Would be
> >> more useful if someone had the possibility of listing all of them
> >> and we could start analyzing where they went wrong before we start
> >> "yet another" mail list.
> >>
> >> Kindly,
> >> Josef
> >>
> >> *International Contact for PPSE*
> >> Contact me for any questions/concerns or if you need to get hold of
> >> someone in Piratpartiet or internationally.
> >>
> >> *Other contact:*
> >> mail: international at piratpartiet.se
> >> Twitter: @collentine
> >> Skype: josef.ohlsson.collentine (only important conversations)
> >> Cel: +46 73 824 9849 (text me, if urgent)
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:22 PM, <
> >> pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Send pp.international.general mailing list submissions to
> >>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>>
> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>>
> >>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>> pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>>
> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>> pp.international.general-owner at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>>
> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> >>> specific than "Re: Contents of pp.international.general digest..."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Today's Topics:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Re: Worrying tendency regarding our message board policies
> >>> (Antonio Garcia)
> >>> 2. A consensus experiment as a partial answer to the Pirate
> >>> Communication Problem. (Zbigniew ?ukasiak)
> >>> 3. Re: A consensus experiment as a partial answer to the Pirate
> >>> Communication Problem. (Antonio Garcia)
> >>> 4. Re: [pp-leaders.discussion] Fwd: Still missing 8/11 board
> >>> reports from the last PPI board + alternate members (Koen De
> >>> Voegt)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 1
> >>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 10:15:32 +0000
> >>> From: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> >>> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> >>> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>, "
> >>> hyazinthe at emailn.de"
> >>> <hyazinthe at emailn.de>
> >>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Worrying tendency regarding our
> >>> message board policies
> >>> Message-ID: <DUB119-W51F9EC7ACB25BC00CD92F8DC370 at phx.gbl>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>>
> >>> Too late for that, my dear...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 03:01:10 +0200
> >>> From: evilteddyxl at gmail.com
> >>> To: hyazinthe at emailn.de;
> >>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net Subject: Re:
> >>> [pp.int.general] Worrying tendency regarding our message board
> >>> policies
> >>>
> >>> Fully agreed and I notice this development too. In The Netherlands
> >>> there are strong advocates of similar measures, but luckily these
> >>> measures have not been put into effect yet *officially* (and as
> >>> such, are not enforced or widely employed at all).
> >>>
> >>> For me, a pirate party is not about gaining seats or getting into
> >>> city councils. It is about achieving our ideals. I don't care if
> >>> that's through getting into legislature bodies through elections,
> >>> or spreading awareness amongst the people, or through setting up
> >>> protests. I don't care at all. The core of it always is that we
> >>> want to have certain ideals be embedded into law and into
> >>> governmental and economic conduct. There are various ways to do
> >>> this, none being strongly better than the other. Each have their
> >>> cons and pros.
> >>>
> >>> As one of our core ideals is openness, transparancy and such, we
> >>> should also employ this into the Pirate Party itself. Having no
> >>> proper public lists is directly in violation of this core
> >>> principle. If we abandon this core principle, it is a slippery
> >>> slope which will eventually make us no different than the generic
> >>> yet another political party.
> >>>
> >>> There will always be trollls. Just learn to live with the flaming
> >>> wars or shitstorms they cause periodically. And when worried about
> >>> leaking abuses of power or such to public lists (I have done so
> >>> several times, in one case even receiving threats of various
> >>> magnitudes including a very nice piece of paper filled with
> >>> threats in legal jargon from the board which i immediatelly
> >>> consigned to no more value as toilet paper.), the first thing you
> >>> should consider then that when there are no abuses taking place,
> >>> they can't be leaked to the public lists (or even for that
> >>> matter, the press, which is generally even more undesirable).
> >>>
> >>> Keep in mind that if you don't adhere to core principles, you are
> >>> bound to fail as a pirate party, since people will eventually see
> >>> that you are no different than the others. Lets try to prevent
> >>> that from happening.
> >>>
> >>> -- RobertoElected member of the Dutch Pirate Party member council.
> >>>
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>> URL: <
> >>>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20140514/a53fa2d4/attachment-0001.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 2
> >>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 13:07:46 +0200
> >>> From: Zbigniew ?ukasiak <zzbbyy at gmail.com>
> >>> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> >>> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> >>> Subject: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial
> >>> answer to the Pirate Communication Problem.
> >>> Message-ID:
> >>> <
> >>> CAGL_UUuzCKi0nFu224bcrbRBnFcZPbZnNO2U3GZdcn1P+XYWmA at mail.gmail.com>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >>>
> >>> Copied from the workpad at:
> >>> http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/ConsensusExperiment
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> # Problem
> >>> (http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/PirateCommunicationProblem)
> >>>
> >>> There is a severe deficiency of communication between the pirate
> >>> parties:
> >>>
> >>> * at the General Assemblies of PPI we don't have enough time to
> >>> talk about everything
> >>>
> >>> * the general mailing list does not work - because lack of rules
> >>> makes the discussion chaotic
> >>>
> >>> * the leaders mailing list and Liquid Feedback setup by Nuno look
> >>> desert
> >>>
> >>> * the local forums are often locked down now
> >>>
> >>> ## Proposal 1: consensus deliberative group experiment (zby)
> >>>
> >>> A consensus based deliberative group (committee?) that would
> >>> gather opinions
> >>> from all pirate parties and work on what is the common core among
> >>> them.
> >>>
> >>> It will be immediately useful for:
> >>>
> >>> * organizing coordinated actions (mostly protests, but also
> >>> actions like welcoming Snowden etc.)
> >>>
> >>> * working on common program core (the European common core program
> >>> is very useful for small parties and it should be copied
> >>> worldwide)
> >>>
> >>> * making common declarations
> >>>
> >>> * maybe working on PPI statutes
> >>>
> >>> After we get it running we can also work on more difficult stuff
> >>> like establishing what it really means to be a pirate party.
> >>>
> >>> ### Known issues
> >>>
> >>> To get there we need to meet two conflicting requirements.
> >>>
> >>> * The group cannot be too big - so that we can work with the
> >>> classical consensus protocol (based on ideas like:
> >>> http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html),
> >>> and it needs to have a well defined boundary (rule #1 in 8 rules
> >>> for governance of the commons by Ostrom
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom ). I think the Dunbar
> >>> Number that is 120 would make a hard limit.
> >>>
> >>> * and it needs to include at least participants from all
> >>> (legitimate) pirate parties
> >>>
> >>> ### Plan
> >>>
> >>> All more concrete rules would be established by the group
> >>> itself. I believe that if we make good rules we can avoid the
> >>> problems that afflict the other communication channels. We can
> >>> start using emails and pads - and then choose our own
> >>> communication infrastructure.
> >>>
> >>> All this will require some work from all participants - we need
> >>> volunteers that can regularly dedicate some of their time to
> >>> communicate with the group and with local parties and work on the
> >>> issues.
> >>>
> >>> Anyone interested?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Zbigniew Lukasiak
> >>> http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
> >>> http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 3
> >>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 11:14:34 +0000
> >>> From: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> >>> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> >>> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> >>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial
> >>> answer to the Pirate Communication Problem.
> >>> Message-ID: <DUB119-W2535E309F9739351178594DC370 at phx.gbl>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>>
> >>> After
> >>>
> http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/finally
> >>> finds a proper and decent solution.
> >>>
> >>> Before, anything anybody tries will be utterly pointless.
> >>>
> >>> Because WE all have been playing with ALL our CORE VALUES
> >>> recklessly... there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Antonio.
> >>>
> >>>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 13:07:46 +0200
> >>>> From: zzbbyy at gmail.com
> >>>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>>> Subject: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial
> >>>> answer to
> >>> the Pirate Communication Problem.
> >>>>
> >>>> Copied from the workpad at:
> >>>> http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/ConsensusExperiment
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> # Problem (
> >>> http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/PirateCommunicationProblem)
> >>>>
> >>>> There is a severe deficiency of communication between the pirate
> >>>> parties:
> >>>>
> >>>> * at the General Assemblies of PPI we don't have enough time to
> >>>> talk about everything
> >>>>
> >>>> * the general mailing list does not work - because lack of rules
> >>>> makes
> >>> the
> >>>> discussion chaotic
> >>>>
> >>>> * the leaders mailing list and Liquid Feedback setup by Nuno look
> >>>> desert
> >>>>
> >>>> * the local forums are often locked down now
> >>>>
> >>>> ## Proposal 1: consensus deliberative group experiment (zby)
> >>>>
> >>>> A consensus based deliberative group (committee?) that would
> >>>> gather
> >>> opinions
> >>>> from all pirate parties and work on what is the common core among
> >>>> them.
> >>>>
> >>>> It will be immediately useful for:
> >>>>
> >>>> * organizing coordinated actions (mostly protests, but also
> >>>> actions like welcoming Snowden etc.)
> >>>>
> >>>> * working on common program core (the European common core
> >>>> program is very useful for small parties and it should be copied
> >>>> worldwide)
> >>>>
> >>>> * making common declarations
> >>>>
> >>>> * maybe working on PPI statutes
> >>>>
> >>>> After we get it running we can also work on more difficult stuff
> >>>> like establishing what it really means to be a pirate party.
> >>>>
> >>>> ### Known issues
> >>>>
> >>>> To get there we need to meet two conflicting requirements.
> >>>>
> >>>> * The group cannot be too big - so that we can work with the
> >>>> classical consensus protocol (based on ideas like:
> >>>> http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html),
> >>>> and it needs to have a well defined boundary (rule #1 in 8 rules
> >>>> for governance of the commons by Ostrom
> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom ). I think the Dunbar
> >>>> Number that is 120 would make a hard limit.
> >>>>
> >>>> * and it needs to include at least participants from all
> >>>> (legitimate) pirate parties
> >>>>
> >>>> ### Plan
> >>>>
> >>>> All more concrete rules would be established by the group
> >>>> itself. I believe that if we make good rules we can avoid the
> >>>> problems that afflict the other communication channels. We can
> >>>> start using emails and pads - and then choose our own
> >>>> communication infrastructure.
> >>>>
> >>>> All this will require some work from all participants - we need
> >>>> volunteers that can regularly dedicate some of their time to
> >>>> communicate with the group and with local parties and work on the
> >>>> issues.
> >>>>
> >>>> Anyone interested?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Zbigniew Lukasiak
> >>>> http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
> >>>> http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
> >>>> ____________________________________________________
> >>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> >>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>>
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>> URL: <
> >>>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20140514/53b301de/attachment-0001.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 4
> >>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 18:23:02 +0200
> >>> From: Koen De Voegt <koen.devoegt at antwerpsepiraten.be>
> >>> To: Paul Bossu <paul at pirateparty.be>, Josef Ohlsson Collentine
> >>> <international at piratpartiet.se>
> >>> Cc: "pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net"
> >>> <pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net>,
> >>> Pirate Parties
> >>> International -- General Talk
> >>> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> >>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] [pp-leaders.discussion] Fwd: Still
> >>> missing 8/11 board reports from the last PPI board +
> >>> alternate members
> >>> Message-ID: <53739866.6010109 at antwerpsepiraten.be>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for your report Paul. Believe me we are trying to fix
> >>> PPI. This is not an easy task and will take some time. More then
> >>> I would like. I would like to note to everyone that doesn't like
> >>> the way PPI is running should take up responsibility in trying to
> >>> fix the matters instead of just giving criticism.
> >>>
> >>> Everyone feel free to propose any solution you are willing to
> >>> implement to help PPI get back on track!
> >>>
> >>> Koen
> >>>
> >>> op 12-05-14 14:43, Paul Bossu schreef:
> >>>> here is my opinion : http://piratepad.be/p/ppiboard
> >>>>
> >>>> *_PPI Alternate Board Member (2nd) - Report_*
> >>>>
> >>>> As asked by Joseph, here is my rapport of 2nd alternate board
> >>>> member
> >>>>
> >>>> When i was candidate in april 2013 it was because form many
> >>>> pirates, PPI is nothing and do nothing.
> >>>>
> >>>> So i was alected 2nd alternate BM, in cas of problem with one of
> >>>> the elected board member.
> >>>>
> >>>> I've do some mumble meeting at the beginning but as expected, it
> >>>> was totally not interesting and most of the time speaking
> >>>>
> >>>> I was not eh first one on the alternate list so i was also
> >>>> discuissing with Jelena (1st alternate)
> >>>>
> >>>> I was clearly not more candidate for any position at PPi this
> >>>> year because i found this organisation totally unrelevant and
> >>>> working as a little circle of people who just wantr to have the
> >>>> tittle of "chair person of world pirates" or just want to say
> >>>> they are "PPI Board Member
> >>>>
> >>>> So after two or three mont of this non productive meetings, i was
> >>>> just following the mailing (board at ppi) and mailing list
> >>>>
> >>>> You know, PPI is Gregory Engel's club for him and his friends ...
> >>>> and th'at's all
> >>>>
> >>>> If after 4 years it's always the same people representing
> >>>> pirates of the world ... (Gregory Engels and his close
> >>>> friends.)... i suppose everyopne on earth can understand where
> >>>> the problem is
> >>>>
> >>>> *Pirately yours and ... "PPI, never again '"*
> >>>>
> >>>> Paul
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> *Paul Bossu*
> >>>> **
> >>>> Board Member @PiratesBelgium <http://lepartipirate.be/about> |
> >>>> Board Member @EuropeanPirates <http://www.europeanpirates.eu/>
> >>>> Linked In Profile <http://be.linkedin.com/in/paulbossu>|
> >>>> @Popol349 <https://twitter.com/Popol349%E2%80%8E> |
> >>>> www.god2014.be <http://god2014.be/> | +32 494 28 35 28
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> pp-leaders.discussion mailing list
> >>>> pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net
> >>>> http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-leaders.discussion
> >>>
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>> URL: <
> >>>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20140514/7ae900e5/attachment.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> pp.international.general mailing list
> >>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> End of pp.international.general Digest, Vol 87, Issue 11
> >>> ********************************************************
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
>
> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTdNOnAAoJEIpd1mdXHpjELi4H/igkp14GkTFRiG2NdO8vPxbT
> lt4LqWhGvIModxrlarkwsUef3cRouj91Afx6vq2xXOhLu4LFBEAdozwnXlTi6Ha3
> ZFfHJJyYFo1TfQSKn4IlrpAfvstfqADCIFw/xy3GxDdQaYpIbmai/N4U0p4LL3Zk
> cEUjfM3F/anyQ5ZfILmfrJhwOWhfuwUWUBDwUIco0tIbjABA2nngTc8l+fT+Q8eu
> lkdVX+JndOXIpIRCEYn3VhqgWK2wCbH/Zuq9xpLyCUsWECJTvZDHTHPMQAQdZbvh
> qivPcHxsD1Te9fKeauOdXyV8NeZoOBBatsN9nUMNki2vCDE/LrGcENHb6gjytmw=
> =pSFT
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 490 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20140515/7c59d2cb/attachment.pgp>
More information about the pp.international.general
mailing list