[pp.int.general] pp.international.general Digest, Vol 96, Issue 20

Core TX coretx at gmail.com
Sun Feb 22 14:35:55 CET 2015 

Dear Andrew,

You're giving someone to much credit.
The first pirate parties to leave the movement did so indirectly as a
result of my bad decission making.
When the word "statutes" first showed up, followed by pencil pushers - it
was me who whas about to leave PPI due to having
to lead the national campaign in the Netherlands.
Being used to be able to trust pirates, I granted the new faces Gregory and
Jerry ( On their own request)  the opportunity to organize and prepare the
first formal GA, and formal statutes.
Eventually the GA on-site organization was saved by Jurgen Ratteau ( PPBE
founder ), yet at the GA itself we where faced with a presidium  who
tried to apply German law in Belgium, and demanding the newfound members to
vote on every little detail of possible statutes without any prior
discussions.
It's the day when the first pirate parties left the movement, and
eventually ceased to exist. ( PP Bulgaria for example. )
This is also why PPSE ~ for good reasons! ~ Did not formally join PPI at
first.
>From that moment onward, a cultural schism was found within the movement,
and all involved parties failed to resolute this conflict.

Ironically, this "PPUK" Andrew supposedly "convinced", was/is the best
informed entity, because of William Tovey ( PPUK ) being the secretary way
back
and he more or less was the only professional peer involved. When conflict
showed up, he continued to be constructive while the schism was only
growing larger.
Despite the rampant unprofessional behaviour within the movement, PPUK
always tried to be constructive and did so in a professional manner, yet
respectfully retreated when things where to no avail. A recent example
would be PPUK *respectfully* retreating during the PPEU negotiations when
all other options where exausted.

Whereas i think that the PPUK choice to leave PPI equals fighting symptoms
instead of tackling the root of the problem, people pointing their finger
at PPUK
should buy a mirror a.s.a.p.
Yet to be more nuanced, i'd say that the culturally connected Australian
pirates where less nuanced and constructive than the UK pirates due to them
being
absolutely intollerant towards unprofessionalism leading to them trying to
fork PPI almost from the start.
Behaviour that i find to be far from constructive, but truth be told
justifiable.

Now that the root of the problems is somewhat more clearly defined, there
is some German wisdom i'd like to share with you.
Namely, Friedrich Glasl his nine-stage model.
You'll see it in occam razor over here: http://i59.tinypic.com/28a6ue8.jpg
Needless to say, i ask of you to make sure we don't go from step 8 towards
step 9.

Cordially,

/Samir Allioui



2015-02-22 12:00 GMT+01:00 <
pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net>:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Invitation PPI online General Assembly on     29.03.2015
>       (Gregory Engels)
>    2. Re: Invitation PPI online General Assembly on     29.03.2015
>       (Jack Allnutt)
>    3. Re: Invitation PPI online General Assembly on     29.03.2015
>       (Thomas Gaul)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 02:12:49 +0100
> From: Gregory Engels <Gregory.Engels at piratenpartei-hessen.de>
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>         <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Cc: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>         <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Invitation PPI online General Assembly
>         on      29.03.2015
> Message-ID:
>         <98AF5C7C-5AA2-49F6-978A-775F8512DA38 at piratenpartei-hessen.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Andrew, you are so totally right in everything, congratulation on your
> convincing PP-UK to leave PPI. Off for a new fresh start all to your liking!
>
> Please stop obstructing people who are actually caring about an
> organization that you no longer part of. And stop repeating all over again
> LIES that are not backing up by reality, case some people are actually
> believe you.
>
> The GA's have significantly improved from year to year, something that you
> completely failing to admit, because it never has fit your mental picture
> of "they are doing it wrong, I have done it very different and much better".
>
> Go play somewhere else, as you promised. Please.
>
> Gregory Engels.
>
> Sent on the road from a tablet device. (Please excuse the spelling and
> briefness)
>
> On 21.02.2015, at 23:06, Andrew Norton <ktetch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On 2/21/2015 4:15 PM, Thomas Gaul wrote:
> >> Hi Lisa!
> >>
> >> Am 21.02.2015 um 21:34 schrieb Lisa:
> >>> I think PPAU tried to do that, but you kind of shat them in the face.
> >> I believe you to be a well educated and well informed pirate. I am very
> >> sure your language slipped by mistake.
> >
> > I don't think so. I think Lisa said what EVERYONE else is thinking.
> >
> >>
> >> Else: for "useful" information I would suggest to everyone just
> >> re-listen to the previous meeting of the board of PPI. Everyone might
> >> get an first hand impression so to say and will not be talking on
> >> information given by hearsay.
> >
> > We aren't. We're going by what YOU say and what YOU do.
> >
> >>
> >>> Nice try on retaking the narrative though.
> >> To put it plain clear – if I would not have been accused of "being
> >> acting on behalf PP-DE as a member of PPI board" and therefore abstain
> >> from each vote for not conflicting with any interest whats'o'ever – I
> >> would have voted yes for the PP-AU proposal.
> >
> > The accusation was by the PP-DE board, who I presume was attempting to
> > come in heavy at YOUR suggestion. To quote you on twitter (in between
> > trying to cast aspersions on me via the official PPI twitter account -
> > https://twitter.com/ppinternational/status/566306135456882689) "Statutes
> > are to be followed. That's why they are given."
> > (https://twitter.com/Thomas1G/status/566329357686558721)
> > Statues say "The members of the Board shall consider the interests of
> > the Pirate movement as a whole and shall neither consider themselves,
> > nor be considered, as representing any particular Member or non-member
> > Organization or region." (XII(1))
> >
> > Oops. Someone doesn't like to follow the statutes. Quelle Suprise! Die
> > Regeln sind für kleine Leute. Ora che è quello che io chiamo corrotto!
> > Neu os ydych wedi bod yn gorwedd ar eich plaid Ac Maen nhw wedi bod
> > yn-représentée. (Qui is niet goed voor 'em, is het?) Oavsett, det är
> > inte bra heller sätt är det?
> >
> >>
> >> And if going even further back in time you will see that I am among
> >> those pushing for an online GA (even in 2014).
> >
> > No, you're pushing for an online version of the same mess we always get.
> > And I do mean MESS. sticking mumble on top of an already piss-poor
> > structure, especially with the problems of accents, poor english
> > understanding, and unaccountability that have PLAGUED PPI over the past
> > 3-4 years means that this is actually going to be WORSE.
> >
> > There was a reason I wrote the online GA to be the way it is. It's too
> > easy otherwise to do a confused vote (see Catalan membership), to be
> > given last-minute votes (see the membership fee votes) and for results
> > to be 'lost' for weeks and months, until 'no-one complained at the time'
> > when they're made public (Kazan's elections) not to mention the infamous
> > 'vote on how to hold a vote on how to hold an election vote' we had one
> > year.
> >
> > What I'm trying to say is that the pre-existing GA structure, and
> > process is not fit for purpose, not in person, and certainly not over
> > mumble. Just look at ARticle2 of the GA RoP - The Board decides who
> > chairs it, who then decides who gets to speak, how long, on what, and
> > what gets voted on. Did it come from "Banana Republics for dummies"?
> >
> >>
> >> And in my believe PPI still has to move on and fulfill its task. Though
> >> take backs are on the way.
> >
> > Take back what? Take back the little good-will PPI had? In case you
> > somehow missed it in your ego-stroking, people are LEAVING PPI.
> >
> > You're not taking anything back, you're just being left with the rotten
> > shell you've constructed. PPI is dead, and had been for a year or more.
> > You killed it.
> >
> > Your greed ("membership fees", got to have them, despite doing nothing
> > for anyone), and sheer bureaucratic ineptitude have flushed it down the
> > toilet.
> >
> > Everyone knows why you had to suddenly have some re-votes. You saw the
> > proposals from Australia. They're good proposals, with a strong chance
> > of passing in a GA that's run with time for consideration, and where you
> > can't control the votes, or bury the results until you can say 'well
> > it's too late, no-one contested it at the time' (seriously, a
> > significant number of CoA rulings say that, and the reason is that
> > no-one knows what the hell's going on at the time). It'll kill the
> > ability to consider yourself 'an influencer', and go 'network' with
> > other NGO's, and perhaps parley it into a job, or some media coverage.
> >
> > You don't care about the issues, or the movement as a whole - if you
> > had, we'd not have seen the kind of pencil-pushing paper-warrior games
> > from the PPI board. And THAT is why so many parties are quitting. Anyone
> > else want to bet that Australia won't be the only party to have quit PPI
> > by the end of March?
> >
> > By the way, in case you forgot, the "task" of PPI was to support the
> > national parties, and assist in international cooperation and
> > communication. Nothing else. the whole 'NGO representing Pirates to the
> > world', that happened when the bureaucrats took over, because how else
> > are they going to earn a wikipedia page for themselves?
> >
> > So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish, Prosthetnic.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > - --
> > Andrew Norton
> > http://ktetch.co.uk
> > Tel: +1(352)6-KTETCH [+1-352-658-3824]
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> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 02:54:00 +0000
> From: Jack Allnutt <j.allnutt at pirateparty.org.uk>
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>         <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Invitation PPI online General Assembly
>         on      29.03.2015
> Message-ID: <54E944C8.3030108 at pirateparty.org.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
>
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> On 22/02/15 01:12, Gregory Engels wrote:
> > Andrew, you are so totally right in everything, congratulation on your
> convincing PP-UK to leave
> PPI. Off for a new fresh start all to your liking!
>
> Andrew is *far*  from the only member of PPUK that ha[d|s] issues with PPI.
>
> I won't go on a rant, hurl profanities, or give you a list of events
> that have driven us to withdraw from PPI (as I'm sure you'll agree from
> my past contributions to this mailing list that isn't my style) but if
> you are under any illusion that it's just down to one outspoken person
> like Andrew convincing the rest of us to leave then please think twice.
> He isn't *that* persuasive ;)
>
> This has been a long time coming, the camel had severe back pain way
> before this online GA debacle.[0]
>
> Considering that PPI has lost two members in as many weeks, perhaps it
> is time to look at whether the positions of those leading PPI, or even
> the existence of PPI itself in its current form, is still tenable.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jack Allnutt
> PPUK International Coordinator
>
> [0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_straw_that_broke_the_camel%27s_back
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 10:23:21 +0100
> From: Thomas Gaul <thomas.gaul at pp-international.net>
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>         <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Invitation PPI online General Assembly
>         on      29.03.2015
> Message-ID: <54E9A009.2010504 at pp-international.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Am 21.02.2015 um 23:06 schrieb Andrew Norton:
>
> Deleted some deliberate misinterpretation. (It is always easy to do this
> with elaborated text - good you have learnt it.)
>
> >
> > By the way, in case you forgot, the "task" of PPI was to support the
> > national parties, and assist in international cooperation and
> > communication. Nothing else. the whole 'NGO representing Pirates to the
> > world', that happened when the bureaucrats took over, because how else
> > are they going to earn a wikipedia page for themselves?
>
> Wow! How shall a board do it: providing the infrastructure isn't enough?
> Maybe be should all give a helping hand while typing or speaking.
>
> So no conference, no actual political involvement. Fun!
>
> Like trying to safe the world with statutes amendments, wild accusations
> against the board (without proof) if asked for it., giving information
> and while omitting important facts etc.
>
> YMMD
>
> Th.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of pp.international.general Digest, Vol 96, Issue 20
> ********************************************************
>
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