<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Reinier: with or without manifesto, next year we'll have to concur to European Election with a common political platform for all the EU -or are you willing to concur with up to 9 different platforms, if all of 9 EU pirate parties manage to be able to present candidates?-.<br><br>If we achieve to nail any seat -difficult, of course; impossible is nothing :)-, that seat wouldn't represent only the party where the MP is member of, but would represent the whole PPI; which decisions would he/she take? according to what? If we want to be a political movement we have to have our common ideas pretty clear -leaving room for each party's own ideas at the national scope-. It would be nonsensical to wait until march-april 2009 to have a common
platform and a common agenda; we want to campaign not by our PIRATA own, but together as a team, as a joint movement.<br><br>----- Mensaje original ----<br>De: Reinier Bakels <r.bakels@planet.nl><br>Enviado: jueves, 26 de junio, 2008 9:02:06<br><span style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">> </span><font color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"><span style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">However sympathetic this
idea is, in NL one of us tried to write a kind of manifesto and it was a
failure. Still no result.</span><br style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">> At the same time, others were engaged in concrete
political activities, and, as you all know, nowadays there is every</span><br style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">> reason on
earth to be politically pro-active in the field of "intellectual property",
privacy, and related PP topics.<br><br>Was it a failure? If everyone within the party works together on it, a draft may be achieved in less than a month; and later you only have to allow amendments and make all members vote such amendments. <span style="font-style: italic;">Voila! Un manifesto tres delicieux</span> :)<br><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span></font><font style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">> Perhaps for PP's that have
some substance already this is different, but it seems to me that a PP such
as in NL which is<br>> still in its infancy, just with a handful of volunteers
rather than a true organisation, it is better to work bottom-up than<br>> top-down
from a manifesto. With bottom-up I mean: working on political topics that
deserve, not to say *require*<br>> immediate attention.<br><br>We still haven't in PIRATA as much substance as Piratpartiet (6.000 members) or Deutsches Piraten Partei (800 members); however, we managed to have our set of common ideas in a record time -a draft in less than a month, the final text in just two months-. Where you see a problem I see an advantage, as it's obviously easier for few members to agree than having hundreds of members agreeing on a set of issues.<br><br>What do you mean with <span style="font-style: italic;">bottom-up</span>? PIRATA is not EC, is not Durao Barroso, is not Sarkozy, is not Cavaco Silva ... our Manifesto process, although it has a group in charge of drafting it, was open in its draft stage for everyone; and as I said, everyone was allowed to amend it. Finally, when we were only 25 members, we allowed an average result of >60 % of YES to all amendments. Is it enough <span style="font-style:
italic;">bottom-up</span>?<br><br></font><font style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">> Is it a risk to work on
such action without</font><span style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span><font style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">a proper manifesto laying the groundwork?<br><br>Calling it <span style="font-style: italic;">risk</span> is an euphemism: it's suicidal. I repeat: we in PIRATA want to campaign, by the end of 2008 or the beginning of 2009, as a joint team together with the rest of pirate parties ... and not as a bunch of parties each making way by their own; we in PIRATA also want to have a set of common ideas to ensure that, whoever the candidate of whatever pirate party becomes elected as MP, that brand new MPs defend those common ideas; thus, we would be able not to talk about a votes in Sweden, b votes in Germany, c votes in Spain, d votes in Netherlands, etc ... but a + b + c + d + ... = x votes in EU for the <span
style="font-weight: bold;">pirate movement</span>. <span style="font-weight: bold;">Are we a common movement? Then we need to have clear our common ideas</span>, common to all pirate parties belonging to it.<br><br>> I think in the field of
so-called "intellectual property" and privacy all of us agree easily. Well,
perhaps the details a<br>> debatable, like whether copyright levies are a good idea I
have strong arguments they are not, but I found there is no<br>> unanimity about this
among PP people). But if there is no agreement, a Manifesto is not a solution
either. And I noted<br>> that there is definitely no agreement on topics further
afield, such as the European Constitution. But imho it is not a<br>> priority to
cover the entire spectrum of political policy.<br><br>Exactly, details are debatable, but general concepts are shared -defense of rights and liberties, culture sharing, free information, etc-; the goal of the Manifesto is to find out which are those general concepts, describe them and pack them.<br><br>To do it we should need to find out where we undoubtably agree, and where we agree on a general, abstract basis though differing in details -and debate those details-; in which topics do you find disagreement, Reinier? The page is aimed to find such topics, so if you already know it -without asking everyone? very praiseworthy :)- please let us know. By the way, I haven't found such disagreement about Lisboa Treaty within this list, where have you seen it? I think you're too pessimistic, Reinier.</font><br><br><font style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">> I believe we should
be
careful not to loose momentum debating over such fundamental issues while
the world is on fire<br>> in the field of copyright and privacy (a few examples: the
recent Swedish tapping law, the French "graduated response"<br>> plans, the
preposterous implementation of the Data Retention Directive in various national
statutes, the levy war<br>> between record companies and electronics
manufacturers - which tends to ignore more fundamental questions, and the<br>> increased propensity to apply criminal law).<br><br>Apart from language obviousness -it's fundamental to debate over fundamental issues, that's why such issues are called (even by yourself in that paragraph) fundamental-, as I said, we in PIRATA find suicidal to concur up to 9 EU pirate parties without having a common agenda. Are you feeling comfortable with that idea?<br><br>Remember: it's required to have 19 MPs from 5 different countries to be allowed to constitute a parliamentary group within European Parliament; are you willing 19 MPs from 5 different countries -or 3 MPs from 3 different countries- to concur defending different agendas on the same topics? Of course that the differences may usually rather be just nuances -not in all cases, in some may be more that nuances-, but even then it would deceive our voters, as if we are going to represent EU-wide pirate voters
as a joint movement how would we work within the Parliament without having clear what we defend?</font><br><br><font style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">> </span></font><font style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Some Pirate Parties such as
in Sweden, Germany and Poland are firmy established. But in other countries,
like NL, it<br>> is still pretty fragile. If the focus is on a theoretical endeavour
such as writing a Manifesto, people may devert their<br>> attention to fields of
action outside the PP framework. As actually happened in NL.<br><br>It only happens when one has not clear which framework is that. So let us work on defining the EU and worldwide pirate framework -and how to manage the non-core issues, also a capital issue as in the real world (if we manage to nail some seats nationwide or EU-wide) we are expected to deal with the rest of parties-.<br><br>Actually it will help you in NL :)<br><br></font><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="2">> We need a sense of urgency
to address the *current* issues *short term*. There is currently a concerted
action of record<br>> companies to, eh, turn the Internet into a police state, and,
remarkably, it lands on fertile ground with the current "law &<br>> order"
mentality prevailing in conservative politics. Where is the
concerted PP response?<br><br>Instead of guessing concerted response, or just focusing on author's rights, let's gonna find out our common stances: it will make easier for us to work together defending our common values.<br></font></div><div style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"><span style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">> Perhaps we should decide on
priorities first.</span><br style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Manifesto </span><span style="font-weight: bold; font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">is</span><span style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> a priority. Otherwise, we would be going to concur to European Election without having a clear idea of what we are defending in the EU scope, very harmful when trying to create a joint movement.
Regards,<br><br><br> Carlos
Ayala<br> ( Aiarakoa )<br><br> Partido Pirata National Board's
Chairman<br></span></font></div></div></div></div><br>
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