<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">----- Mensaje original ----<br>De: Amelia Andersdotter <teirdes@gmail.com><br>Enviado: lunes, 30 de junio, 2008 12:47:56<br>> I can see two good reasons for why we should join a specific group: the voters, and the other parliamentarians.<br>><br>> It solves one major problem for the Pirate Parties: what we do with ourselves in all the other issues.<br><br>We in PIRATA know how to solve it: asking the citizens. If you rather prefer to ask Berlusconi, Lega Norte, nationalists, Greens, Leftists, "Liberals" or Socialists, then you don't value quite much your ideological neutrality. If ever had it.<br><br>> We may only pursue 3 core issues, but in any parliament we will still have to work with all the rest of the
EU-parl-stuff.<br>> Potential voters will feel more reassured if we have a straight-forward strategy for how we're going to vote in our<br>> non-issues, rather than if we say "all the rest is up to the personal ethics of our delegates".<br><br>And who talked about "<span style="font-style: italic;">all the rest is up to the personal ethics of our delegates</span>"? Are you aware that we talked about liquid democracy in Berlin last January? In PIRATA we support citizens' initiatives, as the better approach for a better democracy. It seems that you prefer to present a false only alternative to justify your stance -your voluntary loss of ideological neutrality-.<br><br>Also, it's false that potential voters feel more reassured because of surrendering to another party; the only thing would be achieved that way is to finish being absorbed by the other party. People don't like succedaneous, people prefer the original brands ...<br><br>> Also, being
in the parliament does not mean we will be able to propose changes in EU legislation, rather the contrary.<br>> But we can try to make sure other parliamentary groups talk about our issues. They will be more prone to do so if we<br>> listen to them as well. The worst thing that can happen to us in the EU-parliament is that we just sit around and<br>> vote no to things we don't like, and ditch all the rest of the issues. We'll just come across as un-serious and lazy (this<br>> happened to a Swedish party in the last parliament election, Junilistan)<br><br>Again, you make a false statement. There aren't two options -yours and Junilistan's-, there are other options like PIRATA's ILCs. <span style="font-weight: bold;">Asking citizens through initiatives what do they expect from us, allowing them to set our agenda in the non-core issues</span>; even, enabling consultations and public, social debate through the Social Grid, an <span
style="font-style: italic;">agora</span>-like meeting point for citizens and civic groups.<br><br>Also, it's completely false that other parties are prone to listen to us if we vote everything they ask us in the non-core issues. <span style="font-weight: bold;">You're giving up your ideological neutrality in exchange of nothing</span>. Come on, be serious, Amelia, and read <a href="https://wiki.ppoe.or.at/Valmanifest_2006/English"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Piratpartiet's 2006 Valmanifest</span></a>:<br><br>"<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Both the factions <span style="text-decoration: underline;">REFUSE</span> to meet our demands</span>. This
is the more complicated case, but we can handle this one too. Initially
<span style="font-weight: bold;">we will support one faction</span>, and make a government possible. Most
likely this will be the ones with the less votes, so that the others,
the ‘victors’, will feel that they have lost power they were entitled
to. They can, however, not do much about it, since <span style="font-weight: bold;">we will <span style="text-decoration: underline;">support the
government without questioning</span> in anything that does not involve our
principles</span></span>"<br><br>That's what you're suggesting? Supporting a party without any grant of them supporting our stances? That's insane, that's nonsensical, and that's suicidal for PPI. There are no reasons for surrendering to another parties, it only drives into self-destruction as a party. Regards,<br><br><br> Carlos
Ayala<br> ( Aiarakoa )<br><br> Partido
Pirata National Board's Chairman<br></div></div><br>
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