<div dir="ltr">Please just let's stop bitching. And be constructive please !<br>And if you don't wish to do so, please send those non-constructive mails towards the private adresses.<br>I would be delighted !<br>Tnx!<br>
<br>Signed,<br><br>A adult.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2008/8/23 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net</a>></span><br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. So Piratpartiet does not care about Pirate Manifesto?<br>
(Carlos Ayala)<br>
2. Re: So Piratpartiet does not care about Pirate Manifesto?<br>
(Carlos Ayala)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 10:36:36 +0000 (GMT)<br>
From: Carlos Ayala <<a href="mailto:aiarakoa@yahoo.es">aiarakoa@yahoo.es</a>><br>
Subject: [pp.int.general] So Piratpartiet does not care about Pirate<br>
Manifesto?<br>
To: <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>,<br>
<a href="mailto:internacional@partidopirata.es">internacional@partidopirata.es</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:942978.10694.qm@web28606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com">942978.10694.qm@web28606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi:<br>
<br>
Not a nice thing to wake up in the morning, thinking we all were in the verge of starting the final effort to get ready the Pirate Manifesto's First Draft, only to discover this from ... Rick!<br>
<br>
----- Mensaje original ----<br>
De: Rick Falkvinge (Piratpartiet) <<a href="mailto:rick@piratpartiet.se">rick@piratpartiet.se</a>><br>
Enviado: s?bado, 23 de agosto, 2008 10:54:48<br>
> So what is the purpose of the ongoing work, particularly as I see a lack of interest and buy-in<br>
> (not the least including a lack of interest from my own organization, <a href="http://pp.se" target="_blank">pp.se</a>, the reasons<br>
> for which I just explained)?<br>
<br>
We in PIRATA always knew that you, Piratpartiet, were saboutaging Pirate Manifesto since February 2008 -in spite of yourselves having agreed in Berlin the procedure to be followed in order to get the Manifesto done (vain words were those, then)-. Thank you for confirm our worst fears ...<br>
<br>
But let we make an analysis of your mail:<br>
<br>
> Moreover, while I'm posting to the list, I must ask what the purpose of the manifesto currently<br>
> driven by Carlos is.<br>
<br>
The purposes of this text are enlisted in the wiki page, according to what was agreed in Berlin. You should have better memory, not so many things were agreed in Berlin. Purposes:<br>
<br>
- Reflecting what do we want, which are our goals -let me emphasize the plural part; it's about us as a whole, what we are when we work in common, which are our joint goals; not just Rick's or Piratpartiet's-<br>
- stable; longlasting; as valid now as in the future; whatever the version that applies in each time, it will be a version to be observed.<br>
- it has to be a text agreeable to be read -that's what we have to do until 31st of august, if you don't mind ... it was supposed that Bjorn Odlund, Mab or whoever else from Piratpartiet was going to participate-<br>
- It's meant to be the embryo for an unified international movement, so<br>
it has to get enough abstraction to allow every single pirate party to<br>
look at Pirate Manifesto and say proudly this is my manifesto -this is a crucial thing I though everyone of us cared about; it seems that Piratpartiet doesn't care about it-<br>
<br>
> I know that there was originally a manifesto intended as a common platform for the European<br>
> Parliament election; its purpose was first and foremost to gain press around running for<br>
> parliament as a common movement.<br>
<br>
Wrong; it wasn't its main purpose. Of course making it public and attracting media focus is essential, but less essential than what it contains and how many parties participate in its writing.<br>
<br>
> Faced with a lack of progress on this list<br>
<br>
Of course there was a lack of progress, because lack of participation. And lack of Piratpartiet participation is due to you:<br>
<br>
[mar feb 12 2008] [02:45:57] <Teirdes> I'd love to offer my services as a representative of the Swedish Pirate Party.<br>
[mar feb 12 2008] [02:46:25] <Teirdes> But since I have no information whatsoever about the meeting (the Swedish representatives in Berlin haven't actually said anything about it) I'm not sure I'm capable of doing so.<br>
<br>
Have you ever talked about the Pirate Manifesto works internally in Piratpartiet, Rick, Christian -Christian Engstrom, who was sit just in front of me in Berlin within the task group working on the procedures for the Pirate Manifesto-? According to Teirdes, no; however you were main PPSE representatives in Berlin in January 2008's 2nd International Conference. Why didn't you report?<br>
<br>
> we created such a document at the Uppsala conference, a conference which Spain declined<br>
> sending delegates to. The Uppsala Declaration fulfilled all the stated goals, including getting<br>
> the desired press.<br>
<br>
Uppsala Declaration has fulfilled no single goal:<br>
<br>
- how many pirate parties have already signed it? Only members from 6 pirate parties -apart from PPSE, were PPOE, PPDE, PPNL, PPFI and PPDK-, has any of those parties already signed the Uppsala Declaration?Has any of non attendant parties signed it?<br>
- "platforms are for elections, are specific action plans; a manifesto is more about ideas", was what we ... agreed? in Berlin; however, Marten Fjallstrom stated that Uppsala Declaration was a platform for 2009 EU Election, and even the Declaration talks about joining traditional parliamentary groups and how to vote on non-core issues; Uppsala Declaration has nothing to do with a Manifesto, and nothing to do with what was agreed in Berlin<br>
<br>
> So what is the purpose of the ongoing work, particularly as I see a lack of interest and buy-in<br>
> (not the least including a lack of interest from my own organization, <a href="http://pp.se" target="_blank">pp.se</a>, the reasons for<br>
> which I just explained)?<br>
<br>
The main lack of interest comes from Piratpartiet:<br>
<br>
- 10 parties already shared their stances to make everyone able to find out what do we have in common; we still miss French Parti Pirate, however<br>
- during the Pirate Manifesto's FIrst Draft sessions, representatives from all 10 pirate parties have participated in at least one session -have to say that Piratpartiet representatives didn't attend until last session-, being usual attendance 6-7 representatives at the same session, until we took the bad idea of moving sessions to weekends -which combined with the summer time produced the lack of attendance in the last session-<br>
- systematically, Piratpartiet has refused to send representatives to none of the Pirate Manifesto's sessions, until last one; actually I even wonder how is that you finally send your briefing<br>
<br>
That's the truth about Piratpartiet and the Pirate Manifesto:<br>
<br>
- RIck tried out to bring his own Manifesto and failed; it was developed counting with no one but Piratpartiet, and that was the main reason for its failure<br>
- then, in Berlin we agreed on make a joint effort to develop a suitable text for all parties<br>
- then, as Teirdes words reveal, there was no interest from Piratpartiet about having a joint Manifesto done -she even offered (apparently on her own, not as an idea from her party) to develop the Manifesto between PIRATA and Piratpartiet; that would have been a big mistake, as would have been almost the same that happened with RIck's text<br>
- then, without previous notice, the Uppsala Declaration thing was moved and written; from Marten Fjallstrom we know that Piratpartiet agreed with media to release the Declaration before the attending pirates were even aware of a Declaration going to be written; up to now, is there any pirate party having signed it?<br>
- then we all rescue the Pirate Manifesto -the original idea from Berlin, with Berlin rules-, not without troubles, but with the shared views from 10 pirate parties and observing the deadlines<br>
- and finally, here comes Rick to state without any kind of shame that Piratpartiet has no interest in a Pirate Manifesto -he states that's enough with Uppsala Declaration, signed by no single pirate party, being a political platform rather than a manifesto-<br>
<br>
To be sincere, Rick: you have never seemed to be willing to develop a PPI spirit of continuous team working; instead, you've launched your own manifesto, your home-made Declaration, and everything like if PPI was the Piratpartiet international branch. It isn't. Of course Piratpartiet is the first and biggest pirate party; however, if you truly want a international, strong movement to exist simply treat other pirate parties as peers.<br>
<br>
We in PIRATA wouldn't have had any problem with Piratpartiet -as the biggest pirate party- leading the Pirate Manifesto efforts; however, PIRATA actually finds regrettable -and not only PIRATA but I think all pirate parties should- that blocking, saboutaging attitude from Piratpartiet in order to avoid a text agreed by all pirate parties and representing what we are and what we want -and now that we're having the text (not without troubles, of course) done, you try to defamate it-. Let's start team working, Rick, and let's stop launching torpedoes. Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
Carlos Ayala<br>
( Aiarakoa )<br>
<br>
Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman<br>
<br>
<br>
__________________________________________________<br>
Correo Yahoo!<br>
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis!<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 11:13:06 +0000 (GMT)<br>
From: Carlos Ayala <<a href="mailto:aiarakoa@yahoo.es">aiarakoa@yahoo.es</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] So Piratpartiet does not care about<br>
Pirate Manifesto?<br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>>,<br>
<a href="mailto:internacional@partidopirata.es">internacional@partidopirata.es</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:881409.9355.qm@web28604.mail.ukl.yahoo.com">881409.9355.qm@web28604.mail.ukl.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
I forgot to comment something:<br>
<br>
----- Mensaje original ----<br>
De: Rick Falkvinge (Piratpartiet) <<a href="mailto:rick@piratpartiet.se">rick@piratpartiet.se</a>><br>
Enviado: s?bado, 23 de agosto, 2008 10:54:48<br>
> we created such a document at the Uppsala conference, a conference which Spain declined<br>
> sending delegates to. The Uppsala Declaration fulfilled all the stated goals, including getting<br>
> the desired press.<br>
<br>
That's an ignominious manipulation of facts. Are you purportedly alleging that PIRATA wasn't willing to attend Uppsala? Because it would be one of biggest lies ever said.<br>
<br>
- we are not quite rich in PIRATA<br>
- however we were trying to find the way to send at least one representative to Uppsala<br>
- finally, our National Assembly moved from the weekend previous to Uppsala, to the very Uppsala's weekend, so because of overlapping dates we were unable to send representatives; you're up to check it yourself at your own wiki<br>
<br>
So what do you pretend, Rick? Defamate the Manifesto? Defamate PIRATA? Stop it now, and focus on team working and on developing some inner mechanisms within PPI to make us EU-wide and worldwide operative.<br>
<br>
Why did nobody from Piratpartiet state nothing about the initiative against Torpedo Amendments -mail about it having been sent as soon as 13th of August, i.e., 10 days ago-? As I said in my former mail, in PIRATA we have no problem with Piratpartiet -as the biggest pirate party- leading PPI efforts; however, leadership also means responsibility, and by no means are you being responsible.<br>
<br>
Ricardo-Cristof Remmert and AK Vorrat have created an joint initiative against Data Retention; what, apart from a tiny contribution from Amelia Andersdotter, did Piratpartiet in the Levies Consultation? what about torpedo amendments? And so on: of course you are pretty active in the Swedish scope, but within PPI, what have you done to dare to put the blame on PIRATA with an statement like "we created such a document at the Uppsala conference, a conference which Spain declined sending delegates to"? Facts show that it's not PIRATA the party which shows disengagement to the PPI project ...<br>
<br>
So, RIck, stop now torpedoing the Pirate Manifesto -defamating PIRATA in the process- and start contributing to it. Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
Carlos Ayala<br>
( Aiarakoa )<br>
<br>
Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman<br>
<br>
__________________________________________________<br>
Correo Yahoo!<br>
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis!<br>
Reg?strate ya - <a href="http://correo.yahoo.es" target="_blank">http://correo.yahoo.es</a><br>
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