<<< OK ! >>><br><br>I'm going to be asocial, and insulting right now. ( Since a civil aproach does not seem to work )<br><br>- People are actually trying to achieve something while useing this list.<br>
- Some people barely have the time to read all the important development.<br><br>Create subjects, keep it intrinsic PP related OR GTFO !!!!!<br>And open some "Non constructive General Talk" PP Mailinglist. Or even better when ranting about national politics, start wineing in your national mailinglist instead.<br>
<br>And towards the people who are "just" members, and not part of a workgroup PLEASE ask yourself why you are polluting this INTERNATIONAL mailinglist with off topic quotes of quotes of quotes, nested in a nested part of a nested mail.<br>
<br>I'm REALLY getting sick of all the shit lately. My time is to valuable.<br>And even more important, the construction of the PP is more valuable than YOUR ego ! ( And as mine as well )<br><br>I think i just wrote enough. Let this writeing ( style ) you just read be a example. Now you know how NOT to communicate.<br>
<br>Arrr,<br><br>Core-TX<br>Pirate Party of the Netherlands.<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">008/11/12 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net</a>></span><br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Idiots (Carlos Ayala)<br>
2. Re: Why Members left (Max Moritz Sievers)<br>
3. Re: WHOA now - everyone, stop for a minute (Max Moritz Sievers)<br>
4. Re: WHOA now - everyone, stop for a minute (Alonso Pombo)<br>
5. Re: Why Members left (Glenn Kerbein)<br>
6. Re: Pirate Manifesto: Finally, amendments showdown (Natsu)<br>
7. Re: OFF TOPIC (Max Moritz Sievers)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:09:28 +0000 (GMT)<br>
From: Carlos Ayala <<a href="mailto:aiarakoa@yahoo.es">aiarakoa@yahoo.es</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Idiots<br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:656113.70121.qm@web28601.mail.ukl.yahoo.com">656113.70121.qm@web28601.mail.ukl.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
De: Max Moritz Sievers <<a href="mailto:m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de">m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de</a>><br>
Enviado: mi?rcoles, 12 de noviembre, 2008 17:24:44<br>
David Arcos wrote:<br>
> > Can you PLEASE stop opening a new thread each time you respond? It's also very impolite to<br>
> > call "idiot" to the person with who you are discussing.<br>
> I didn't call a particitant of the discussion an idiot<br>
<br>
Are you sure? Remember Kaj's words about staying civil and not bickering. You said<br>
<br>
"The supporters of answer B (saying always yes to nuclear power) are not libertarians, theyare idiots."<br>
<br>
Syllogism: as you state that supporters of answer B are idiots, if there are supporters of answer B in this lists, then there are in this list people who are being called idiot by you.<br>
<br>
Again: are you sure that you're not calling any participant of this discussion an idiot? I think you better pay attention to Kaj's advices :) Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
Carlos Ayala<br>
( Aiarakoa )<br>
<br>
Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:21:46 +0000<br>
From: Max Moritz Sievers <<a href="mailto:m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de">m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Why Members left<br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:200811121721.46755.m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de">200811121721.46755.m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Andrew Norton wrote:<br>
> Max Moritz Sievers wrote:<br>
> > Take me as an example. I am totally against nuclear power and communism<br>
> > and totally for anarchy.<br>
><br>
> Don't understand why.<br>
<br>
It is BAD practice to take a position on a topic without knowing all the facts<br>
about it.<br>
<br>
> Nothing wrong with nuclear power. It's as clean as we have, and as safe.<br>
<br>
It produces radioactive waste and also a lot of CO2 by the way. And like<br>
fossil fuels uranium resources aren't unlimited. We can continue with nuclear<br>
power maybe 100 or 200 years if we don't change the methods. In about 900<br>
million years no man can live on earth because the sun is getting hotter. If<br>
mankind wants to survive this, it has to move from earth. Every use of energy<br>
which could not last until then is not sustainable and we have to end it as<br>
quick as possible.<br>
<br>
But I highly query that mankind will survive 1,000 years.<br>
<br>
--<br>
regards<br>
Max Moritz Sievers<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:16:13 +0000<br>
From: Max Moritz Sievers <<a href="mailto:m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de">m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] WHOA now - everyone, stop for a minute<br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:200811121916.13122.m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de">200811121916.13122.m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Andrew Norton wrote:<br>
> Please people, add your party name, and position at the end of your email,<br>
> and if you are NOT speaking on behalf of the party, make that clear there<br>
> also.<br>
<br>
We speak mostly for ourselves. In the rare cases someone has an official<br>
statement from his party /this/ should be made clear.<br>
<br>
| You bring into a union your whole power, your competence, and make yourself<br>
| count; in a society you are employed, with your working power; in the former<br>
| you live egoistically, in the latter humanly, that is, religiously, as<br>
| a "member in the body of this Lord"; to a society you owe what you have, and<br>
| are in duty bound to it, are -- possessed by "social duties"; a union you<br>
| utilize, and give it up undutifully and unfaithfully when you see no way to<br>
| use it further. If a society is more than you, then it is more to you than<br>
| yourself; a union is only your instrument, or the sword with which you<br>
| sharpen and increase your natural force; the union exists for you and<br>
| through you, the society conversely lays claim to you for itself and exists<br>
| even without you, in short, the society is sacred, the union your own;<br>
| consumes you, you consume the union.<br>
|<br>
| Nevertheless people will not be backward with the objection that the<br>
| agreement which has been concluded may again become burdensome to us and<br>
| limit our freedom; they will say, we too would at last come to this,<br>
| that "every one must sacrifice a part of his freedom for the sake of the<br>
| generality." But the sacrifice would not be made for the "generality's" sake<br>
| a bit, as little as I concluded the agreement for the "generality's" or even<br>
| for any other man's sake; rather I came into it only for the sake of my own<br>
| benefit, from selfishness. But, as regards the sacrificing, surely<br>
| I "sacrifice" only that which does not stand in my power, that is,<br>
| I "sacrifice" nothing at all.<br>
<br>
-- Max Stirner: The Ego and Its Own<br>
<a href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ego_and_Its_Own/My_Intercourse" target="_blank">http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ego_and_Its_Own/My_Intercourse</a><br>
<br>
--<br>
regards<br>
Max Moritz Sievers<br>
Member of PPDE<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:10:09 -0600<br>
From: "Alonso Pombo" <<a href="mailto:pombiux@gmail.com">pombiux@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] WHOA now - everyone, stop for a minute<br>
To: "Pirate Parties International -- General Talk"<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:ae3c78690811121210k249512bdo69c9854644c3acf2@mail.gmail.com">ae3c78690811121210k249512bdo69c9854644c3acf2@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
IN FAVOR<br>
<br>
- ON MY BEHALF<br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Max Moritz Sievers <<br>
<a href="mailto:m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de">m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Andrew Norton wrote:<br>
> > Please people, add your party name, and position at the end of your<br>
> email,<br>
> > and if you are NOT speaking on behalf of the party, make that clear there<br>
> > also.<br>
><br>
> We speak mostly for ourselves. In the rare cases someone has an official<br>
> statement from his party /this/ should be made clear.<br>
><br>
> | You bring into a union your whole power, your competence, and make<br>
> yourself<br>
> | count; in a society you are employed, with your working power; in the<br>
> former<br>
> | you live egoistically, in the latter humanly, that is, religiously, as<br>
> | a "member in the body of this Lord"; to a society you owe what you have,<br>
> and<br>
> | are in duty bound to it, are -- possessed by "social duties"; a union you<br>
> | utilize, and give it up undutifully and unfaithfully when you see no way<br>
> to<br>
> | use it further. If a society is more than you, then it is more to you<br>
> than<br>
> | yourself; a union is only your instrument, or the sword with which you<br>
> | sharpen and increase your natural force; the union exists for you and<br>
> | through you, the society conversely lays claim to you for itself and<br>
> exists<br>
> | even without you, in short, the society is sacred, the union your own;<br>
> | consumes you, you consume the union.<br>
> |<br>
> | Nevertheless people will not be backward with the objection that the<br>
> | agreement which has been concluded may again become burdensome to us and<br>
> | limit our freedom; they will say, we too would at last come to this,<br>
> | that "every one must sacrifice a part of his freedom for the sake of the<br>
> | generality." But the sacrifice would not be made for the "generality's"<br>
> sake<br>
> | a bit, as little as I concluded the agreement for the "generality's" or<br>
> even<br>
> | for any other man's sake; rather I came into it only for the sake of my<br>
> own<br>
> | benefit, from selfishness. But, as regards the sacrificing, surely<br>
> | I "sacrifice" only that which does not stand in my power, that is,<br>
> | I "sacrifice" nothing at all.<br>
><br>
> -- Max Stirner: The Ego and Its Own<br>
> <a href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ego_and_Its_Own/My_Intercourse" target="_blank">http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ego_and_Its_Own/My_Intercourse</a><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> regards<br>
> Max Moritz Sievers<br>
> Member of PPDE<br>
> ____________________________________________________<br>
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Alonso Pombo<br>
CASA PELLAS S.A.<br>
Innovacion<br>
(505) 484-9141<br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:15:51 -0800<br>
From: Glenn Kerbein <<a href="mailto:glenn.kerbein@pirate-party.us">glenn.kerbein@pirate-party.us</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Why Members left<br>
To: <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20081112121551.02743f53@The-Illusion.gateway.2wire.net">20081112121551.02743f53@The-Illusion.gateway.2wire.net</a>><br>
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<br>
I have to be curt here...<br>
WHERE IN THE FUCK DID THIS CONVERSATION GO?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Glenn Kerbein<br>
Administrator<br>
Pirate Party of the United States<br>
<a href="mailto:glenn.kerbein@pirate-party.us">glenn.kerbein@pirate-party.us</a><br>
"Burn, Hollywood, burn."<br>
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Message: 6<br>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:27:28 +0100<br>
From: Natsu <<a href="mailto:piratenatsu@gmail.com">piratenatsu@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: Finally, amendments<br>
showdown<br>
To: "Pirate Parties International -- General Talk"<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:a03155fb0811121227x30fc0b94j58639a3409cb696@mail.gmail.com">a03155fb0811121227x30fc0b94j58639a3409cb696@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
><br>
> Regimen doesn't work. Field tested all over the world for thousands of<br>
> years.<br>
><br>
> --<br>
><br>
* Regimen?* Are you putting *every *form of government in the same sack, and<br>
anarchy in the other hand? Do you put the Aztec Empire in the same package<br>
than the Swiss democracy? Talk about logic fallacies...<br>
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Message: 7<br>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:30:30 +0000<br>
From: Max Moritz Sievers <<a href="mailto:m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de">m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] OFF TOPIC<br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:200811122030.30095.m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de">200811122030.30095.m.sievers@piratenpartei-hessen.de</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15"<br>
<br>
Gagis wrote:<br>
> I truly fail to see your point of view on just about any issue. I do not<br>
> know if it is because of the language barrier or what but all of this seems<br>
> extremely absurd to me.<br>
><br>
> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Max Moritz Sievers wrote:<br>
> > Gagis wrote:<br>
> >> Also, campaigning based on conspiracy theories is a political suicide.<br>
> ><br>
> > Well, for president Bush it worked and for Obama it will work, too.<br>
><br>
> I do think that if they went for a conspiracy theory, such as moon landings<br>
> never occurring, aliens spying on us or such, they would have been laughed<br>
> out of the game.<br>
<br>
The official story of 9/11 is a theory of a conspiracy -- so it is a<br>
conspiracy theory. Maybe this helps.<br>
<br>
And remember *we* are spying on aliens. If there are aliens, they could be<br>
spying on us, too. Is this so implausible?<br>
<br>
> Gagis wrote:<br>
> > > Finnish Party will almost certainly not include either in uniform Party<br>
> > > Program.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Those two are also up to individual members. Also, there is no issue<br>
> > > about sexuality of babies.<br>
> ><br>
> > Why?<br>
><br>
> Most of all: Because there isn't. Look at any major media reports and you<br>
> won't see any debates about the sexuality of babies.<br>
<br>
Then we should start a debate.<br>
<br>
> It's not an issue. Infant means baby.<br>
<br>
No and no.<br>
<br>
> Humans develop physical sexual ability at the age range of 11-18 years of<br>
> age. Babies are around 1 years old. I see no issue there.<br>
<br>
It is BAD practice to take a position on a topic without knowing all the facts<br>
about it.<br>
<br>
| All human beings, from birth until death are sexual beings.<br>
| [...]<br>
| Your child is a sexual being. And as futile as trying to prevent breast<br>
| development and menstruation in females, broadening shoulders and deepening<br>
| voices in males, it is best to help your young person manage new and<br>
| powerful emotions and desires, rather than ignore, manipulate or deny what a<br>
| young person feels.<br>
<a href="http://www.youthembassy.com/parents_sexuality.asp" target="_blank">http://www.youthembassy.com/parents_sexuality.asp</a><br>
<br>
I recommend to study the work of Wilhelm Reich. Maybe a good starting point<br>
would be "Children of the Future: On the Prevention of Sexual Pathology". But<br>
I haven't read this book yet. One book I have read an know that it contains<br>
what is need here is "The Mass Psychology of Fascism".<br>
<br>
As Reich put it:<br>
<br>
| Suppression of the natural sexuality in the child, particularly of its<br>
| genital sexuality, makes the child apprehensive, shy, obedient, afraid of<br>
| authority, good and adjusted in the authoritarian sense; it paralyzes the<br>
| rebellious forces because any rebellion is laden with anxiety; it produces,<br>
| by inhibiting sexual curiosity and sexual thinking in the child, a general<br>
| inhibition of thinking and of critical faculties. In brief, the goal of<br>
| sexual suppression is that of producing an individual who is adjusted to the<br>
| authoritarian order and who will submit to it in spite of all misery and<br>
| degradation. At first the child has to submit to the structure of the<br>
| authoritarian miniature state, the family; this makes it capable of later<br>
| subordination to the general authoritarian system. The formation of the<br>
| authoritarian structure takes place through the anchoring of sexual<br>
| inhibition and anxiety.<br>
<br>
> Sexuality trough genes and psychology of course exists since we are born as<br>
> males and females... but what is the issue and where? Children are not<br>
> forced to hide their gender.<br>
<br>
They are forced in several ways. And I'm certain this holds true till today<br>
and in the future if we don't change it. I don't have to spy in the private<br>
rooms to know what's going on. If there was no suppression of the sexuality<br>
(especially of children) the world would look dramatically different. There<br>
would be no police brutality -- to name just one thing.<br>
<br>
> There is nothing preventing children/the young from having sex with each<br>
> other in Finland. Legal age of consent on the other hand, meaning age when<br>
> adults can have sex with the minor, is debatable in the 12-20 range, but I<br>
> am quite happy with it being at 16, since it works well.<br>
<br>
If I would ask you, if a 17 year old should be punished, you would presumably<br>
answer no. Than this law is junk! Laws should be enforced regardlessly. Enact<br>
the laws accordingly! I am the founder of the law and order wing of the PPDE.<br>
I solicit for outing yourselves as proponents of law and order, too. Why<br>
should we accept that the idiots lay claim to this idea?<br>
<br>
> If you want to legalize pedophilia, this is not the right political movement<br>
> for you.<br>
<br>
Right, because pedophilia *is* legal and never was illegal.<br>
<br>
> > > Drugs divide the party when it comes to opinion but it will never<br>
> > > divide the party when it comes to co-operation.<br>
> ><br>
> > You should know that intelligence services profit from the illegal trade.<br>
> > Our<br>
> > demand for privacy will only then fulfilled if all intelligence services<br>
> > are<br>
> > destroyed. Just with this reasoning we have to stop prohibition.<br>
><br>
> Umm what... 0_o<br>
><br>
> I do like how our army, which I and most of the adult members of PPFI serve<br>
> in as reserves, is able to monitor invaders in war.<br>
<br>
Who should invade? The people? Who do you think is your enemy?<br>
<br>
> Destroying intelligence services destroys the military, the police and so<br>
> on.<br>
<br>
No, not necessarily. But I want to destroy them, too. As long as there is a<br>
law, a police is required. But this should be a different police.<br>
<br>
> Goverment and military agencies are not private businesses who market their<br>
> services to you and rely on there being something to work against.<br>
<br>
Where is your argument here?<br>
<br>
> > If you want to dictate which drugs other people are allowed to use, you<br>
> > don't value freedom. If you oppress the sexuality of your childs, you<br>
> > don't value freedom. Why do you think the people allow oppression through<br>
> > copyright and constraints of civil liberties?<br>
><br>
> I like to restrict people's ability to consume various poisons.<br>
<br>
Why should they obey to you? You have to force them.<br>
<br>
> It is a non-core issue and should not be taken a common<br>
> stance on and it is a dangerous issue that will certainly shift us from the<br>
> party that brings the new idea to everyone to a party than brings the new<br>
> issue to half of the interested people.<br>
<br>
Because intelligence services get their power from the black market and our<br>
goal of privacy and peace can only be attained when there is no intelligence<br>
service, we should take action against the back market. This is a core issue.<br>
<br>
> > | We're playing with half a deck as long as we tolerate that the<br>
> > | cardinals of government and science should dictate where human<br>
> > | curiousity can legitimately send its attention and where it can not.<br>
> > | It's an essentially preposterous situation. It is essentially a civil<br>
> > | rights issue, because what we're talking about here is the repression of<br>
> > | a religious sensibility. In fact, not /a/ religious sensibility, /the/<br>
> > | religious sensibility.<br>
> ><br>
> > -- Terence McKenna: Non-Ordinary States Through Vision Plants<br>
><br>
> ...<br>
<br>
You should contemplate about these wise words.<br>
<br>
> > > What you suggest will kill any such initiative immediately. It is not a<br>
> > > coincidence that the Lobby constantly and vigorously tries to associate<br>
> > > file sharing with child porn.<br>
> ><br>
> > Child porn is a side issue. When I call for to stop oppressing the<br>
> > sexuality infants, I don't encourage child porn. There is a relation<br>
> > between child porn and the oppression of the sexuality of infants: it's a<br>
> > vicious circle. This is true for every kind of child abuse. I want to<br>
> > break the cycle. Why shouln't this be a goal of our movement?<br>
><br>
> What do your really mean with all this? Legalizing pedophilia? Hell no.<br>
<br>
You little pervert! It happens all in *your* phantasy.<br>
<br>
> Changing attitude of parents who spank their children for being interested<br>
> in the opposite sex? Not the work of a politician.<br>
<br>
Sure it is.<br>
<br>
> > It's a hot subject and that is why it could profitable for us. It is not<br>
> > reasonable for me to be member of a party which will never be in a<br>
> > parliament. I reckon this will be the case with those core-topic focused<br>
> > Pirate Parties. If they would even so suceed, life would hbe a bit easier<br>
> > or at least we would have a bit more freedom. But then the real problems<br>
> > wouldn't be touched -- and not solved.<br>
><br>
> Pirate movement is strong BECAUSE people come to our conclusions from all<br>
> sides of political ideologies. Becoming the next haven for fringe movements<br>
> is what would end us.<br>
<br>
So you want superficial politics. I don't.<br>
<br>
> We work for freedom, not your personal angendas or ideas of it. There is a<br>
> difference beetween a shared goal and someone's private goals, and that is<br>
> why we should not let anyone include theirs in our program. Not me, nor<br>
> you.<br>
<br>
A shared goal is the privat goal of more than one individual.<br>
<br>
--<br>
regards<br>
Max Moritz Sievers<br>
<br>
<br>
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End of pp.international.general Digest, Vol 21, Issue 33<br>
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</blockquote></div><br>