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<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>I would suggest that you
read a basic legal introduction into the principles of property
rights.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Apparently you do not
understand the difference between "recognising" rights and "respecting"
rights(*).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>What rights are recognised
is a political issue - actually the core issue of the pirate party
movement.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>But once a right(*) is
recognised, it must be respected. That is the human rights "decent society"
aspect. Anything that has a (legitimate) monetary value can not be taken away
from citizen without a proper compensation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>(*) To avoid confusion: I
refer to *subjective* rights here. E.g. a subjective right is MY copyright
on a particular work - as opposed to THE copyright, which is abstract and only
leads to subjective rights if and when someone creates
something. </FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar,
Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou,
Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kveðja<BR>>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD
LL.M. MSc<BR>private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The
Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490, fax
+31 79 316 7221</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=aiarakoa@yahoo.es href="mailto:aiarakoa@yahoo.es">Carlos Ayala
Vargas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">Pirate Parties
International -- General Talk</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 24, 2008 9:50
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pp.int.general] where is
the manifesto?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Reinier Bakels wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:00a901c96543$fa5357f0$6400a8c0@RBB2007 type="cite">
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>I actually referred to art. 1 of the first protocol
to the ECHR: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>Article 1 - Protection of property. Every natural
or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No
one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and
subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles
of international law. [...]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>In this provision, "property" includes
"intellectual property". Legal theory usually emphasises that the two are
essentially different. The common denominator is however that a "property
right", ONCE AND TO THE EXTENT IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED, deserves
protection against expropriation (without a proper compensation). The logic
behind this is that a right representing some (monetary) value should not be
taken away from its owner, in a decent
society.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>In a decent society! Well, most pirate
parties signed an answer to an EC Consultation which <A
href="http://int.piratenpartei.de/Levies_Questionnaire#The_premise_of_copyright_levies">stated</A>
that PPI doesn't consider author's rights as private property -among other
reasons, because not even the highest supporters of private property
(liberalism) consider author's rights as private property, thus finding
<I>intellectual pro...whatever</I> a fallacy-.<BR><BR>Thus, are you calling
all signatories of that answer to the Levies Consultation ... indecent? Are
you calling us indecent, Reinier?<BR><BR>About <I>the logic</I>, please <A
href="http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/898586b1dc7b4043c1256a450044f331/03902145edbbe797c125711500584ea8/$FILE/G0640060.pdf">read
UN's ESC</A> before making such statements.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:00a901c96543$fa5357f0$6400a8c0@RBB2007 type="cite">
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>In sum, for the pirate party the essence
is:</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>For the PPI, <I>with your permission</I>
-actually, even without it :)-, the essence will be agreed, or not agreed, by
all pirate parties, i.e., by their members. That is, by signing any of the
proposed drafts, or not signing any of them -and which draft to sign being
democratically and internally decided by each pirate party-.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:00a901c96543$fa5357f0$6400a8c0@RBB2007 type="cite">
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>YES we recognise the (human rights) protection of
information (or whatever overarching term you want to use) ONCE AND TO THE
EXTENT IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>NO we do not assume that all creativity
automatically leads to such rights, and we even challenge the present
rights. The present limits are the output of a political process, rather
than human rights requirements, so they are subject to change whenever
political conceptions change.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>And it is the objective of PP to challenge the
objects and contents of such rights. Not to deprive people from
existing rights (without compensation). Only the latter would violate human
rights.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>Is that clear? A literal interpretation of the
above UDHR provision would mean the end of the PP - but it would also
invalidate the ECHR, the US Constitution and similar Constitutional
regulations.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>"<I>Is that clear?</I>" "<I>the latter
would violate human rights</I>" "<I>would mean the end of the PP</I>" I truly
hallucinate with your mail :) In Spain, we have a Political Parties Law which
enables Government to illegalize parties which behave against the rule of the
law and against the law itself; PIRATA states that intellectual property is a
fallacy and, up to date, no letter from Ministry of Interior has arrived to us
notifying a process to illegalize us.<BR><BR>So no, it's not clear at all, as
you aren't right: nobody is going to legally illegalize us because of
defending author's rights while rejecting wicked concepts like <I>intellectual
pro...whatever</I>.<BR><BR>About "<I>depriving people from existing rights
(without compensation)</I>", you're going against UN provisions. Considering
the <A
href="http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/898586b1dc7b4043c1256a450044f331/03902145edbbe797c125711500584ea8/$FILE/G0640060.pdf">UN
ESC's 2005 paper</A>, and as long as <B>UN allows retrogressive measures
regarding author's rights if the State party which propose such measures
proves that they come after careful consideration of all alternatives and that
they are duly justified in the light of the totality of the human rights
recognized in the Covenant</B> (paragraph 27 of that paper), the term of
material author's rights can be shortened falling considerably below current
term and even maybe not extending over the entire lifsepan of the author,
levies can be fully eliminated, and free non-commercial filesharing can be
enabled -as long as we consider that non-commercial filesharing causes no
prejudice to be compensated-.<BR><BR>Please, document yourself way more prior
to <I>menacing</I> us with illegalization or simmilar if we continue rejecting
the <I>intellectual pro...whatever</I> concept, or accusing us of being
indecent and being violating human rights -it seems that you went too far,
don't you agree, Reinier?-.
Regards,<BR><BR><BR>
Carlos
Ayala<BR>
( Aiarakoa )<BR><BR>
Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>____________________________________________________<BR>Pirate Parties
International - General
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