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<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Carlos,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Sorry to say, but I am
really surprised by the way you talk to me. No, I don't consider my own
interpretation more valid than the UN interpretation. I only compare the
position of the UDHR with the ECHR, and the different status of those statements
(the one is a declaration, the other a treaty). I don't have the time to write a
scientific article for you with footnotes supporting all my statements. To
some extent you have to trust me - and, perhaps more importantly, the logic of
what I contend.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Frankly, I believe that the
logic of the system of property rights - or at least the European perspective of
it - is pretty obvious. Unlike outsiders occasionally believe, law
is mostly pretty logical. The "property" concept links into mainstream
private law, which has a very solid basis, dating back to the
Romans. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>I believe the paper you
referred to is to a considerable extent based on Locke's philosophy. But this
very philosophy leads exactly to the type of law that PP opposes. In simple
terms, the idea is that labour creates an entitlement to a property right. But
this truth from the world of tangible objects can not be transposed into the
world of information goods such as works and inventions. This was recognised
alredy by the great Grman law scholar Josef Kohler (1849-1919), and there are
some seminal articles by the Austrian/Americam economist Fritz Machlup who
explain the same thing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>I like informal
communication, but I urge you to observe basic principles of politeness. Happy
Christmas! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar,
Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou,
Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kćr Kveđja<BR>>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD
LL.M. MSc<BR>private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The
Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490, fax
+31 79 316 7221</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=aiarakoa@yahoo.es href="mailto:aiarakoa@yahoo.es">Carlos Ayala
Vargas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">Pirate Parties
International -- General Talk</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:53
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pp.int.general] where is
the manifesto?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Reinier Bakels wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:022401c965fd$94513110$6400a8c0@RBB2007 type="cite">
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>I have found the document you refer
to</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Congratulations :) I was afraid that, as I only
linked it several times, you might have found difficult to find it.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:022401c965fd$94513110$6400a8c0@RBB2007 type="cite">
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>I am not sure about its authority. These are legal
issues, and hardly ever in law there is THE truth. I repeat: the UN can only
make statements, unlike the European Court of Human Rights, that can make
binding decisions.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>For me is enough to consider UDHR
as reference -in its true interpretation, not in the one given by you (I
cannot believe that you give yourself authority to interprete UDHR while you
deny authority ... to United Nations! Simply unbelievable)-. After having a
reference, a basis to work with, the rest of legal frameworks can be modified
according to it and to our viewpoints.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:022401c965fd$94513110$6400a8c0@RBB2007 type="cite">
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>Making change to rights *after* they have been
granted (or recognised (*)) in my view is really
forbidden.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Making false or forged statements is not
forbidden, though it should be highly recommendable not to be done.<BR><BR>Who
has talked here about forgetting rule of law? Pirate Manifesto explicitly
acknowledges rule of law -one of its principles being irretroactivity of
prejudicial changes-; so please stop falsely accusing people.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:022401c965fd$94513110$6400a8c0@RBB2007 type="cite">
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>That does not mean however that political action
can have no effect: if the law is changed, NEW (subjective) rights may be
different, or perhaps may not be recognised/granted at all. But existing
rights must be respected until they expire - or the owner must be
compensated. The reason is actually pretty obvious. If I write something, I
get the copyright, and I may sell the copyright to someone else, e.g. the
publisher. Because he has paid the money, he can expect the
government to protect his purchase.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Current EU
legal framework states that "<I>in certain situations <B>where the
prejudice</B> to the rightholder <B>would be minimal, no obligation to payment
may arise</B></I>" (2001/29/EC, preamble, paragraph 35). So we may discuss
whether non-commercial filesharing causes or not none or minimal prejudice to
rightholders -I say yes, it causes none or nearly none, I guess you say no; I
can give arguments to my answer, hope you are able to give some for
yours-.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:022401c965fd$94513110$6400a8c0@RBB2007 type="cite">
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>Of course, a true pirate will wonder whether the
copyright should be recognised at all. This is something that can change -
but only for NEW creations.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>Legislators should warrent legal certainty, but
that does NOT mean it can not change the law - a common
misconception.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Why do you suppose that we are
suffering that misconception? Again, read the Pirate Manifesto drafts, they
talk about rule of law.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:022401c965fd$94513110$6400a8c0@RBB2007 type="cite">
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>(*) Patents are granted. Copyrights come into
existence by the act of creation. It is a philosohical question whether the
right is created automatically, or whether it is created "naturally" by the
creativity of the author and only protected by the legal system. Well, that
is just a detail.<BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I found very amusing your
viewpoint about <I>copyrights</I> being naturally created with the act of
intellectual works creation -actually I find it bizarre even the usage of
<I>the C word</I>-. Ĺet's rather talk about author's rights and ... unless
Mother Nature, God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster have told you that <I>the C
word</I> is in the very nature of intellectual works -by the way, it would be
quite worrying having you talking with any of those entities-, also forget
that <I>true/natural/logical</I> words ... are you willing to give your
statements a sort of halo that makes them untouchable ... or something?
<B>Laws, in democracy, are not passed by God nor by Mother Nature, but by
human beings; and what is made by human beings can be changed by human
beings</B>.<BR><BR><BR>
Carlos
Ayala<BR>
( Aiarakoa )<BR><BR>
Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman
<P>
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