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<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks for the
encouragement. My concern is actually that we get carried away from solution
directions. As I explained in another mail, the human rights route imnsho is
unlikely to be productive, and may even be counter-productive. Striving for a
reduction of the copyright term is a VERY large term option, not because it is
unimportant, but merely judged from a feasibility perspective.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>But various other
reforms can indeed me productive:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- the private copy
exception</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- more in general: fair
used instead of the present closed system</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- subject matter
limitations (at least in NL there is a tendence of the Supreme Court to extent
copyrightable subject-matter)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- rights conferred (using
copyrighted material currently is not a reserved right - one can read a
book as often as one likes to - but publishers may want to change
this </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- copyright
contracts</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- role of
publishers/distributors(protecting a market that has disappeared due to
internet</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- exhaustion</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- collecting
societies</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- levies</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- DRM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- copyright abuse, from a
copyright or even human rights perspective</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- enforcement reforms
(IPRED1/2) - in particular limiting criminal enforcement</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- is the list long
enough?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar,
Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou,
Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kćr Kvedja<BR>>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD
LL.M. MSc<BR>private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The
Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490, fax
+31 79 316 7221</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=pomescollege@gmail.com href="mailto:pomescollege@gmail.com">Will
Pomes</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">Pirate Parties
International -- General Talk</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 29, 2008 9:19
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pp.int.general] where is
the manifesto?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I have not spoken up in this thread, though I understand what
you mean here.<BR><BR>I assure you that I am trying to understand, because I
look at this debate as a struggle for the heart and soul of the movement. Just
because Carlos and the others may not be listening when you speak, does not
mean that you have to stop speaking. <BR><BR>When you talk about how change
might come about, it helps to bring us all a little closer to a viewpoint that
we can gain popular acceptance with.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:13 AM, Reinier Bakels <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:r.bakels@pr.unimaas.nl">r.bakels@pr.unimaas.nl</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>i think it is not very
useful to continue this debate. you consistently try NOT to understand
me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>i suspect you are a
fifth colone employed by a record company. or you are simply a pathetic
troublemaker. of course there is room for disagreement and debate, but then
it should be conducted in a constructive manner. you look for differences
where they do not exist. you are not prepared to accept basics in law
that are familiar to all lawyers. and you have the bad habit of making a
factual debate personal, blaming me to offend you. if you can't
control your emotions, we do not get anywhere. you even occasionally
blame me to offend others, like the UN.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Yes indeed, this mail
IS offensive. And I am also about to get offended by your
unwillingness to conduct a constructive debate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>If ever there will be a
Dutch PP, it will use its own "manifesto" - and it will probably use a
different name. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar,
Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou,
Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kćr Kvedja<BR>>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD
LL.M. MSc<BR>private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The
Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490,
fax +31 79 316 7221</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=aiarakoa@yahoo.es href="mailto:aiarakoa@yahoo.es"
target=_blank>Carlos Ayala Vargas</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net"
target=_blank>Pirate Parties International -- General Talk</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, December 29, 2008 3:40 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Wj3C7c>Reinier Bakels wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">My experience is that it is not very helpful at
all to refer to human rights considerations in a political context.
Political arguments are different from legal arguments anyway, and if
you still want to address specific legal issues or proposals, it is
helpful to be careful not to give your opponents (IFPI etc.) the
arguments for saying: these people are irresponsible. That risk is
particularly high with human rights. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE>If the opponents are
going to say that, I'm going to laugh at them -people who knows about RMOs
in Spain vary from laughing to blaming RMOs when they publicly dismiss
human rights like privacy -violated by SGAE-, right to associate -violated
by SGAE-, obligation to have inner democracy within an association
-violated by SGAE-, etc.<BR><BR>The thing is, Reinier: do you find
irresponsible that we, in PPI, refer to human rights? Truly, as long as
PIRATA refer, in its very Statute, to human rights and UDHR, it doesn't
matter to me; human rights are so important for us that what seems
irresponsible for me is to dismiss them.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">And for copyright, there are the collective
rights organisations. This is a complete Sodom &
Gomorra.</BLOCKQUOTE><A
href="http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=gomorra"
target=_blank>Gomorra</A>, yes.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Incidentally, authors who use the services of
such organisations loose the right to prohibit publications - which is a
central (also moral) aspect of the copyright as it was designed. And the
levies.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is a proverb, "<I>you are preaching a
converse</I>" -about the harm made by levies and RMOs; about other issues
we are actual and obviously antagonists-; I think that the PPI answers to
the levies consultation already show how we reject levies and how we
reject the current role of RMOs -the problem is not in RMOs existing, but
in RMOs hijacking some author's rights (RMOs must serve authors, not the
opposite)-.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">And isn't - in practice - the prime task of the
PP to counter the dominance of the distributors, who are no longer
needed in the Internet era - and try to prolong their life by ugly legal
methods? This calls for better copyright contract law, among other
things.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>This call, first of all, to forget the <I>c
word</I> and the <I>intellectual pro...whatever</I> concept; and talk
about author's rights. If you are so worried about RMOs, first of all I
think you should avoid to use they language.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">But stay away from human rights.</BLOCKQUOTE>I
have to wholeheartedly say that I totally dismiss <I>advices</I> like
"<I>stay away from human rights</I>" -whatever the context in which such
words may be said-.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">As you all know, I have extensively cooperated
in the campaign against software patents. But I always advised my fellow
activists not to use amateur human rights arguments.</BLOCKQUOTE>Bad for
them if they paid attention to such <I>advices</I>. In EU, biopatents are
allowed; in EU, monopolies from patents can arise; while the EU patent
system may not present as much problems as US system, it indeed has
problems.<BR><BR>And strictly about software patents, why is it so
bothering to you to hear your fellow activists to talk about, e.g., the <A
href="http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/03/rim-ntp-settle-for-612-million-finally/"
target=_blank>Blackberry (RIM vs NTP) scandal</A> and other <B>real</B>
dangers of the US patent system? It's a great idea to show how things are
in other countries, to convince people to not follow bad examples, and it
of course can be done within the software patents concept.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">If only because - at best - their efforts will
duplicate the work of real lawyers, while no one cares for the social
substance of the problem, e.g. the (alleged) stiffling effects of
software patents.</BLOCKQUOTE>There is a misconception about the
importance of real lawyers: being a real lawyer doesn't imply that such
lawyer is going to give you good advices, or that is going to make good
usage of laws; simply, it implies that such lawyer knows about laws.
However, that knowledge can be used for evilish purposes -I see it in
Spain, where Law scholars, even constitutional experts, while I don't
doubt that they perfectly know about Spanish Constitution and
constitutionalism, I neither doubt about the reasons for their lies about
those issues-.<BR><BR>If a trustable lawyer tells me "<I>you cannot
inmediately adapt all the system; you can change the framework for new
items, and manage a transitional period for old items to harmonize</I>",
I'll make usage of the lawyer's wisdom, as long as that lawyer shows how
to make changes without violating rule of law. However, if that lawyer
states "<I>you cannot adapt the system</I>" ... I search for other
lawyer.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Then you get the kind of conversation:
"This is a disaster all over Europe". Answer: "Give me one example" -
and then there no example, but just hearsay from the US (where the
patent system is definitely different). <BR><BR>To some extent it is a
blessing in disguise, that the disasters in the field of copyright are
more obvious. On the other hand, the PP arguments are slightly counter
intuitive vs. the "poor" artists.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, I disagree with
your unjustified viewpoints. How do you say that PPI (not PP, we are not
PP) arguments are slightly counter intuitive?<BR><BR>- having less than
1.000 <I>poor artists</I> controlling a 85.000-member RMO like SGAE is
pretty intuitive and people who knows about it understands it very
quickly<BR>- collecting a fee for media and devices, no matter whether you
are going to use them for copyrighted works or not, is pretty
intuitive<BR>- dangers of initiatives like US <I>Choruss</I> and France's
<I>Olivennes Agreement</I> -their threats against privacy and other
fundamental rights (those rights you <I>advice</I> to stay away from ...
no thanks)- are pretty intuitive.<BR><BR>And I don't talk about PPI
supporters; I talk about people who have never heard about us,
hairdressers, bartenders, etc, who after hearing the wonders made by RMOs
inmediately understand the threat that it implies. So please don't be so
disrespectful with our
arguments.<BR><BR><BR>
Carlos
Ayala<BR>
( Aiarakoa
)<BR><BR>
Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman<BR></DIV></DIV>
<P></P>
<HR>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
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