dear rienier,<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;"> I apologize that what I am about to request is going to inconvenience you,<br></div><br>BUT, could you please follow the general convention of not adding your reply within a subset (in this example, containing your whole message) titled "original message" ?<br>
<br>Sometimes we just have to realize that what will be accomplished is what is what it is. Politics is unpredictable, like litigation.<br>And sometimes it is necessary to do something that will draw criticism. in our case, perhaps more often.<br>
<br>However, you are right in that in order to accomplish anything, we do have to focus our efforts, otherwise they will just get buried underneath all the normal legislation and day to day business,<br><br>I also agree with you on the danger of the human rights arguement, at least before we accomplish at least some of the objectives stated in the Manifesto, or in the general platforms of each party.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Reinier Bakels <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:r.bakels@pr.unimaas.nl">r.bakels@pr.unimaas.nl</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<b>From:</b>
<a title="aiarakoa@yahoo.es" href="mailto:aiarakoa@yahoo.es" target="_blank">Carlos Ayala
Vargas</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">Pirate Parties
International -- General Talk</a> </div>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d"><div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 30, 2008 1:13
AM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [pp.int.general] where is
the manifesto?</div>
<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS"></font><br></div>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d"><div>Prior to replying you: why do you have to turn your mail into the
<i>Rainbow warrior</i>? I mean, please don't use so many colours in a single
mail, it hurts my eyes.</div>
<div> </div>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d"><div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">There was black and blue,
and I added red. If you (or your eyes) get upset because of a third color
(or actually a second, other than black), I really wonder what is going
on. </font><br><br>Reinier Bakels wrote: </div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#000000" face="Comic Sans MS">If you are prepared
to accept the risk of an <b>extension</b> of "intellectual
property rights" e.g. copyright, and very tough enforcement measures, yes,
there is no risk in advocating human
rights.</font></font></div></blockquote></blockquote>
<div>The lobbies actual and falsely advocate human rights to justify their
liberticide measures; are you willing to allow them to do it? If not, I think
you should advocate human rights while proving they abuse and falsely
interprete human rights.</div>
<div> </div>
</div><div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">It is not 100% sure that
your interpretation is right and the others are wrong ... besides, politics
does not always follows the lines of logic. My estimate is that there is a
substantial risk that the human rights argument is used to strengthen both the
contents and the enforcement of "intellectual propeerty", i,.e, to achieve
exactly the opposite from PP objectives. This is based on my perception on the
way the human rights argument is used <i>today</i> in this
context. </font><br></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#000000" face="Comic Sans MS">Again, the DRD was
defended with the argument that it <b>supports</b> human rights
(e.g. of the authors, and the potential victims of terrorism), perhaps at
the expense of privacy, but who cares? Please note these are not my
arguments, but still arguments accepted in politics by a majority.
</font><br></font></div></blockquote></blockquote>
<div>They can say whatever they want; they can say <i>we are massaging you</i>
while they beat you, or <i>we are supporting human rights</i> while violating
them -they did in Spain with the implementation of 2000/31/EC, allowing
censorship without prior court ruling (against Spanish Constitution)-. Our
duty is to prove they lie; it is part of our opposition tasks.</div>
<div> </div>
</div><div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">Again, the substance of
human rights considerations in this context is by no means unambiguous. They
will juxtapose their "truth" with your "truth". In my view, in such a
situation it is easier to defend rights directly than to follow the risky
detour via human rights. </font><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><font color="#000000"><big><font size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"><big>Two aspects: 1.
If you choose a certain emphasis, you can't do other
things.</big></font></big></font></blockquote></blockquote><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div>False. If I become a MP, I won't be a MP just to attend one issue of the
set of core issues, during an entire term! Me, and the rest of pirate who
eventual and hypothetically would nail seats at the parliaments, would fight
to achieve all goals, making as many as possible.</div>
<div> </div>
</div><div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">It is good to be
ambitious. But it is usually helpful to set priorities. Of course your energy
(or the energy of whoever other PP parliament member) is infinite. But you
should also take the "processing power" of the outside world in consideration.
Doing too much may confuse your voters. </font><div class="Ih2E3d"><br><br><b>If I
become a MP</b>, I won't aim for a 5 % <b>of the platform of the party where I
belong</b>, or for a 15 %, or for a 20 % -of course I won't aim <font color="#000000">against that platform-; <b>I'll work for 100 %</b>, and time and
dealing skills will determine the final % of achieved goals.<br></font></div></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><font color="#000000"><font size="2" face="Comic Sans MS">So you better choose to
address problems that you realistically can resolve in the
foreseeable future. Copyright and patent term reductions require
cumbersome international negotiations. The present political mood is
to strengthen rather than weaken copyright
etc.</font></font></blockquote></blockquote><font color="#000000">Thus, we have
to work in order to avoid that and revert the tide, haven't we? Precisely due
to lobbies trying to enlenghten the abuse, we have to work, first, to stop the
enlengthening, and at the same time, to revert it.<br></font>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><font color="#ff0000"><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Comic Sans MS">The US
imposes "TRIPS plus" conditions in bilateral treaties to many (developing)
nations. The deal is easier access to the world market for (conventional)
goods. But even if the political "weather forecast" would be more
favourable, such a process would take many years.
</font><br></font></blockquote></blockquote>
<div>I'm a young man at my 28 years; how many years do you have in mind?
<b>Politics are a set of short, middle & long-term efforts</b>; we a<font color="#000000">re not going to give up on them just because you state "<i>they
cannot be achieved prior to the end of the current
term</i>".</font></div><font color="#000000"></font></div></blockquote>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><font color="#000000"><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">Again,
priorities, in conjunction with long-term visions, are helpful. Note however
that you will be faced by people saying: if you try to change TRIPS (in a
direction of less protection), then you are simply naive ... and then you
better be prepared to answer that question, because it is a pretty logical
question. </font>
<div><br></div></font><div class="Ih2E3d">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Comic Sans MS">Well, some of the reforms I
propose can even be made in court.</font><font color="#000000"><br></font>
<blockquote type="cite"><font color="#000000">- is the list long
enough?</font></blockquote>
<div><font color="#000000">Not for pirate parties, in the light of our
several ideologies and national platforms.<br><br></font><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Comic Sans MS">Then add something to the
list.</font></div></blockquote></blockquote>
</div><div><div class="Ih2E3d">I did: reducing term & scope of commercial rights, allowing non
commercial filesharing, etc; and that's concerning author's rights ... as we
saw last summer <a href="http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance" target="_blank">there
are other core issues for pirate parties</a>, Reinier; you're not going to
take such issues away from our platforms.<br><br></div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">Oh no, I did not mean to say that the list was
exhaustive, and I wasserious when I invited you to add more
items.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">reinier</font> </div></blockquote></div>
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