I have not spoken up in this thread, though I understand what you mean here.<br><br>I assure you that I am trying to understand, because I look at this debate as a struggle for the heart and soul of the movement. Just because Carlos and the others may not be listening when you speak, does not mean that you have to stop speaking. <br>
<br>When you talk about how change might come about, it helps to bring us all a little closer to a viewpoint that we can gain popular acceptance with.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:13 AM, Reinier Bakels <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:r.bakels@pr.unimaas.nl">r.bakels@pr.unimaas.nl</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">i think it is not very
useful to continue this debate. you consistently try NOT to understand
me.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">i suspect you are a fifth
colone employed by a record company. or you are simply a pathetic troublemaker.
of course there is room for disagreement and debate, but then it should be
conducted in a constructive manner. you look for differences where they do not
exist. you are not prepared to accept basics in law that are familiar to
all lawyers. and you have the bad habit of making a factual debate
personal, blaming me to offend you. if you can't control your
emotions, we do not get anywhere. you even occasionally blame me to offend
others, like the UN.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">Yes indeed, this mail IS
offensive. And I am also about to get offended by your unwillingness
to conduct a constructive debate.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Comic Sans MS">If ever there will be a
Dutch PP, it will use its own "manifesto" - and it will probably use a different
name. </font></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div> </div>
<div>Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar,
Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou,
Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kćr Kvedja<br>>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD
LL.M. MSc<br>private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The
Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490, fax
+31 79 316 7221</div>
</div><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<b>From:</b>
<a title="aiarakoa@yahoo.es" href="mailto:aiarakoa@yahoo.es" target="_blank">Carlos Ayala
Vargas</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">Pirate Parties
International -- General Talk</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 29, 2008 3:40
AM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [pp.int.general] where is
the manifesto?</div>
<div><br></div></div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">Reinier Bakels wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">My
experience is that it is not very helpful at all to refer to human rights
considerations in a political context. Political arguments are different
from legal arguments anyway, and if you still want to address specific legal
issues or proposals, it is helpful to be careful not to give your opponents
(IFPI etc.) the arguments for saying: these people are irresponsible. That
risk is particularly high with human rights. <br></blockquote>If the opponents
are going to say that, I'm going to laugh at them -people who knows about RMOs
in Spain vary from laughing to blaming RMOs when they publicly dismiss human
rights like privacy -violated by SGAE-, right to associate -violated by SGAE-,
obligation to have inner democracy within an association -violated by SGAE-,
etc.<br><br>The thing is, Reinier: do you find irresponsible that we, in PPI,
refer to human rights? Truly, as long as PIRATA refer, in its very Statute, to
human rights and UDHR, it doesn't matter to me; human rights are so important
for us that what seems irresponsible for me is to dismiss them.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">And for copyright, there are the collective rights
organisations. This is a complete Sodom & Gomorra.</blockquote><a href="http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=gomorra" target="_blank">Gomorra</a>, yes.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Incidentally, authors who use the services of such organisations
loose the right to prohibit publications - which is a central (also moral)
aspect of the copyright as it was designed. And the
levies.<br></blockquote>There is a proverb, "<i>you are preaching a
converse</i>" -about the harm made by levies and RMOs; about other issues we
are actual and obviously antagonists-; I think that the PPI answers to the
levies consultation already show how we reject levies and how we reject the
current role of RMOs -the problem is not in RMOs existing, but in RMOs
hijacking some author's rights (RMOs must serve authors, not the
opposite)-.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">And isn't - in practice - the prime task of the PP to counter
the dominance of the distributors, who are no longer needed in the Internet
era - and try to prolong their life by ugly legal methods? This calls for
better copyright contract law, among other things.<br></blockquote>This call,
first of all, to forget the <i>c word</i> and the <i>intellectual
pro...whatever</i> concept; and talk about author's rights. If you are so
worried about RMOs, first of all I think you should avoid to use they
language.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">But stay away from human rights.</blockquote>I have to
wholeheartedly say that I totally dismiss <i>advices</i> like "<i>stay away
from human rights</i>" -whatever the context in which such words may be
said-.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">As
you all know, I have extensively cooperated in the campaign against software
patents. But I always advised my fellow activists not to use amateur human
rights arguments.</blockquote>Bad for them if they paid attention to such
<i>advices</i>. In EU, biopatents are allowed; in EU, monopolies from patents
can arise; while the EU patent system may not present as much problems as US
system, it indeed has problems.<br><br>And strictly about software patents,
why is it so bothering to you to hear your fellow activists to talk about,
e.g., the <a href="http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/03/rim-ntp-settle-for-612-million-finally/" target="_blank">Blackberry
(RIM vs NTP) scandal</a> and other <b>real</b> dangers of the US patent
system? It's a great idea to show how things are in other countries, to
convince people to not follow bad examples, and it of course can be done
within the software patents concept.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">If
only because - at best - their efforts will duplicate the work of real
lawyers, while no one cares for the social substance of the problem, e.g.
the (alleged) stiffling effects of software patents.</blockquote>There is a
misconception about the importance of real lawyers: being a real lawyer
doesn't imply that such lawyer is going to give you good advices, or that is
going to make good usage of laws; simply, it implies that such lawyer knows
about laws. However, that knowledge can be used for evilish purposes -I see it
in Spain, where Law scholars, even constitutional experts, while I don't doubt
that they perfectly know about Spanish Constitution and constitutionalism, I
neither doubt about the reasons for their lies about those issues-.<br><br>If
a trustable lawyer tells me "<i>you cannot inmediately adapt all the system;
you can change the framework for new items, and manage a transitional period
for old items to harmonize</i>", I'll make usage of the lawyer's wisdom, as
long as that lawyer shows how to make changes without violating rule of law.
However, if that lawyer states "<i>you cannot adapt the system</i>" ... I
search for other lawyer.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Then you get the kind of conversation: "This is a disaster
all over Europe". Answer: "Give me one example" - and then there no example,
but just hearsay from the US (where the patent system is definitely
different). <br><br>To some extent it is a blessing in disguise, that the
disasters in the field of copyright are more obvious. On the other hand, the
PP arguments are slightly counter intuitive vs. the "poor"
artists.<br></blockquote>Again, I disagree with your unjustified viewpoints.
How do you say that PPI (not PP, we are not PP) arguments are slightly counter
intuitive?<br><br>- having less than 1.000 <i>poor artists</i> controlling a
85.000-member RMO like SGAE is pretty intuitive and people who knows about it
understands it very quickly<br>- collecting a fee for media and devices, no
matter whether you are going to use them for copyrighted works or not, is
pretty intuitive<br>- dangers of initiatives like US <i>Choruss</i> and
France's <i>Olivennes Agreement</i> -their threats against privacy and other
fundamental rights (those rights you <i>advice</i> to stay away from ... no
thanks)- are pretty intuitive.<br><br>And I don't talk about PPI supporters; I
talk about people who have never heard about us, hairdressers, bartenders,
etc, who after hearing the wonders made by RMOs inmediately understand the
threat that it implies. So please don't be so disrespectful with our
arguments.<br><br><br>
Carlos
Ayala<br>
( Aiarakoa
)<br><br>
Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman<br>
</div></div><p>
</p><hr><div class="Ih2E3d">
<p></p>____________________________________________________<br>Pirate Parties
International - General
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</div></blockquote></div>
<br>____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
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