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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=pomescollege@gmail.com href="mailto:pomescollege@gmail.com">Will
Pomes</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">Pirate Parties
International -- General Talk</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:13
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pp.int.general] where is
the manifesto?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>dear
rienier,<BR>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT><BR>BUT, could you please follow the general convention of not
adding your reply within a subset (in this example, containing your whole
message) titled "original message" ?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>I don't know what you
mean. I have some difficulty because these mails are in a format that does not
allow > and >> designations for the original text. So use
colors. Or do they get lost in your mailer? They don't in Carlos' mailer
- he loudly complained about my use of colour
... </FONT><BR><BR>Sometimes we just have to realize that what will
be accomplished is what is what it is. Politics is unpredictable, like
litigation.<BR>And sometimes it is necessary to do something that will draw
criticism. in our case, perhaps more often.<BR><BR>However, you are right in
that in order to accomplish anything, we do have to focus our efforts,
otherwise they will just get buried underneath all the normal legislation and
day to day business,<BR><BR>I also agree with you on the danger of the human
rights arguement, at least before we accomplish at least some of the
objectives stated in the Manifesto, or in the general platforms of each
party.<BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks for the support.
The fact of the matter is that it requires experience to know what arguments
work, what arguments don't work and what arguments are used in an adverse
e</FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>ffect. I won't claim
much experience but I do have some experience. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Reinier Bakels <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:r.bakels@pr.unimaas.nl">r.bakels@pr.unimaas.nl</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=aiarakoa@yahoo.es href="mailto:aiarakoa@yahoo.es"
target=_blank>Carlos Ayala Vargas</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net"
target=_blank>Pirate Parties International -- General Talk</A>
</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Tuesday, December 30, 2008 1:13 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<DIV>Prior to replying you: why do you have to turn your mail into the
<I>Rainbow warrior</I>? I mean, please don't use so many colours in a
single mail, it hurts my eyes.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>There was black and
blue, and I added red. If you (or your eyes) get upset because of a
third color (or actually a second, other than black), I really wonder what
is going on. </FONT><BR><BR>Reinier Bakels wrote: </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><FONT
color=#ff0000><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000000>If you are
prepared to accept the risk of an <B>extension</B> of "intellectual
property rights" e.g. copyright, and very tough enforcement measures,
yes, there is no risk in advocating human
rights.</FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>The lobbies actual and falsely advocate human rights to justify their
liberticide measures; are you willing to allow them to do it? If not, I
think you should advocate human rights while proving they abuse and
falsely interprete human rights.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>It is not 100% sure
that your interpretation is right and the others are wrong ... besides,
politics does not always follows the lines of logic. My estimate is that
there is a substantial risk that the human rights argument is used to
strengthen both the contents and the enforcement of "intellectual
propeerty", i,.e, to achieve exactly the opposite from PP objectives. This
is based on my perception on the way the human rights argument is used
<I>today</I> in this context. </FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><FONT
color=#ff0000><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000000>Again, the DRD
was defended with the argument that it <B>supports</B> human rights
(e.g. of the authors, and the potential victims of terrorism), perhaps
at the expense of privacy, but who cares? Please note these are not my
arguments, but still arguments accepted in politics by a majority.
</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>They can say whatever they want; they can say <I>we are massaging
you</I> while they beat you, or <I>we are supporting human rights</I>
while violating them -they did in Spain with the implementation of
2000/31/EC, allowing censorship without prior court ruling (against
Spanish Constitution)-. Our duty is to prove they lie; it is part of our
opposition tasks.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Again, the substance
of human rights considerations in this context is by no means unambiguous.
They will juxtapose their "truth" with your "truth". In my view, in such a
situation it is easier to defend rights directly than to follow the risky
detour via human rights. </FONT><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#000000><BIG><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2><BIG>Two aspects:
1. If you choose a certain emphasis, you can't do other
things.</BIG></FONT></BIG></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<DIV>False. If I become a MP, I won't be a MP just to attend one issue of
the set of core issues, during an entire term! Me, and the rest of pirate
who eventual and hypothetically would nail seats at the parliaments, would
fight to achieve all goals, making as many as possible.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>It is good to be
ambitious. But it is usually helpful to set priorities. Of course your
energy (or the energy of whoever other PP parliament member) is infinite.
But you should also take the "processing power" of the outside world in
consideration. Doing too much may confuse your voters. </FONT>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d><BR><BR><B>If I become a MP</B>, I won't aim for a 5 %
<B>of the platform of the party where I belong</B>, or for a 15 %, or for
a 20 % -of course I won't aim <FONT color=#000000>against that platform-;
<B>I'll work for 100 %</B>, and time and dealing skills will determine the
final % of achieved goals.<BR></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#000000><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>So you better choose
to address problems that you realistically can resolve in
the foreseeable future. Copyright and patent term reductions require
cumbersome international negotiations. The present political
mood is to strengthen rather than weaken copyright
etc.</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#000000>Thus, we
have to work in order to avoid that and revert the tide, haven't we?
Precisely due to lobbies trying to enlenghten the abuse, we have to work,
first, to stop the enlengthening, and at the same time, to revert
it.<BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#ff0000><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000000 size=2>The US
imposes "TRIPS plus" conditions in bilateral treaties to many
(developing) nations. The deal is easier access to the world market
for (conventional) goods. But even if the political "weather
forecast" would be more favourable, such a process would take
many years. </FONT><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>I'm a young man at my 28 years; how many years do you have in mind?
<B>Politics are a set of short, middle & long-term efforts</B>; we
a<FONT color=#000000>re not going to give up on them just because you
state "<I>they cannot be achieved prior to the end of the current
term</I>".</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#000000></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
color=#000000><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Again,
priorities, in conjunction with long-term visions, are helpful. Note
however that you will be faced by people saying: if you try to change
TRIPS (in a direction of less protection), then you are simply naive ...
and then you better be prepared to answer that question, because it is a
pretty logical question. </FONT>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000000 size=2>Well, some of the reforms I
propose can even be made in court.</FONT><FONT
color=#000000><BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><FONT color=#000000>- is the list long
enough?</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000>Not for pirate parties, in the light of our
several ideologies and national platforms.<BR><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000000 size=2>Then add something to the
list.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>I did: reducing term & scope of commercial rights,
allowing non commercial filesharing, etc; and that's concerning author's
rights ... as we saw last summer <A
href="http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance"
target=_blank>there are other core issues for pirate parties</A>, Reinier;
you're not going to take such issues away from our
platforms.<BR><BR></DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Oh
no, I did not mean to say that the list was exhaustive, and I wasserious
when I invited you to add more items.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff
size=2>reinier</FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>____________________________________________________<BR>Pirate
Parties International - General Talk<BR><A
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target=_blank>http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<P>
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