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<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>I am very sorry. Yes, I can
perfectly understand that you won't read all this anymore, and get
irritated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>Still, there is a
substantive aspect to this conversation, which is eventually important for our
movement, with aspects such as:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- What are the priorities?
Short term small reforms, or long term structural reforms, or both? If we do
both, the one may hurt the other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- How useful and how
dangerous is the human rights argument?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- How do we get political
attention for the privacy issue, in countries where this is not
widely acknowledged? Finding solutions is difficult, but selling a problem
first is even more difficult.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>- How do we address the
fact that a lot of legislation in "our" field is cast in the concrete of
international treaties? It is a tough dilemma: accepting it may be seen as
surrender, but proposing change will be considered extremely difficult, even by
non-biased, non-political commentators.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>I urge you all
- if you comment - to comment on the substance of my questions, and not
blame me for my wordings, simplifications or lack of supporting evidence.
If only because such complaints have made 10 times already in the past
week. If you feel offended, quit the
list. <FONT> </FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff
size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar,
Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou,
Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kvedja<BR>>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD
LL.M. MSc<BR>private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The
Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490, fax
+31 79 316 7221</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=godfloyd@gmail.com href="mailto:godfloyd@gmail.com">Florian Lauté</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">Pirate Parties
International -- General Talk</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 05, 2009 4:49
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pp.int.general] where is
the manifesto?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><FONT
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>I think this
discussion is not a constructive one for PP (or PPI like you
want).<BR><BR>Please use private mail to do that, not on the mailing list.
Some of us don't read anymore the mails sent throw the ML because of that kind
of discussion.<BR><BR>Sorry for my english which is not perfect, this is one
of the reason why it is difficult to read "all" the mails ......<BR><BR>Keep
on mid that a clear debate, without animosity will be more important for each
one of us than that.<BR><BR>Florian Lauté from "Parti Pirate Français"
(PPFR)<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>2009/1/5 Carlos Ayala Vargas <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:aiarakoa@yahoo.es">aiarakoa@yahoo.es</A>></SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>Reinier Bakels wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">1.
I don't think a private conversation was appropriate. I always talked
about the substance - even if you sometimes thought I did not. If I say
"you are wrong", than I don't mean that I blame you for making a mistake,
but that I have a different view (wich could be a fact or an
opinion).<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>And, /of course/, if you make contradictions
-like calling me /fifthcolumnist/ and PPI /fundamentalist/ at the same
time-, or plain insults -like /stupid/-, or other defamations -like
/radical/-, you would just have been /creative/ in your descriptions.
Haven't you been? Come on.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">2.
My "denial" is essential. Being insulting or scornful requires the
*intent* to do so (or at least "dolus eventualis" - I don't know the term
in English), and if I say that it is NOT my intent, *you have to accept
that as a fact*.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>That would require me trusting your
statement. If you /apologize/ in one mail while, in the same mail, continue
calling /radicals/ all those who doesn't give up in demanding our goals -by
the way, you considered our goals as /esoteric/! (your mail: 4-XII-09,
10:14)-, believe me: I don't trust your excuses.
<DIV class=Ih2E3d><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Even
when I called you a "fifth column" at some time, that was about your
opinions.<BR>A "fifth column" - as you know - is some who works for the
"ennemy". Which was perfectly appropriate<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>Me, working
for the pro-copyright lobby? Your excuses cannot be trustable when you
continue defamating me again, and again. Can anyone find serious to say in
the same mail "/and if I say that it is NOT my intent/ (to insult me)/, *you
have to accept that as a fact*/", and "/even when I called you a 'fifth
column'/ [...] */was perfectly appropriate/*". I'm not here to be insulted,
moderate yourself.
<DIV class=Ih2E3d><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">And,
frankly, my patience is not infinite.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>I have no doubt
on that; actually I find it quite finite -from the first mails you have used
that stuff I wholeheartedly reject-.
<DIV class=Ih2E3d><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">This
morning I tried another shock effect, calling you "amusing". *Should I use
even stronger words* to clarify my point?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>What is
this? Do you even dare to open & publicly menace me with further
insults? This is new. Hope that insulting in this PPI list cannot be for
free. So now, Reinier, just debate within the limits of politeness; nobody
prevents you from debating, simply I won't tolerate that stuff from you.
<DIV class=Ih2E3d><BR><BR><BR>
Carlos
Ayala<BR>
( Aiarakoa )<BR><BR>
Partido Pirata National Board's
Chairman<BR><BR>____________________________________________________<BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Wj3C7c>Pirate Parties International - General Talk<BR><A
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net"
target=_blank>pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target=_blank>http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</A><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>N'imprimez pas vos mails, ou si vous le devez, pensez à
réutiliser la feuille comme brouillon. De plus, quand vous imprimez, ayez le
réflexe de le faire en noir et blanc et en choisissant une qualité moins
bonne, surtout quand il y a des images.<BR><A
href="http://ekologeek.free.fr">http://ekologeek.free.fr</A><BR>
<P>
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<P></P>____________________________________________________<BR>Pirate Parties
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