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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face="Comic Sans MS">I won't deny what you are
saying. In fact you confirm that there are two different "streams" in PP: the
Manifesto-lovers and the people who have other priorities. While I clearly
belong to the latter group, who am I to make a judgement? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face="Comic Sans MS">In the Helsinki meeting,
there was just one person of the former type. It is not a "boycot" by the
Swedish PiratPartiet. Leading PP persons from Germany and Finland do not
consider the Manifesto a priority either, aparently.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face="Comic Sans MS">So far the facts. My
*opinion* is that the present drafts rely too much on human rights arguments. I
think it is a basic mistake in a *political* document such as a "PP Manifesto"
to rely on *legal* human rights arguments. Basically for two reasons 1) politics
and law are separate domains, perhaps connected, but different in nature 2) if
you still want to use human rights arguments, you need a through understanding
of this very complicated field of law, else you are likely to "reinvent the
wheel" (time consuming, error prone). The problem is that most human rights are
somehow contradictory, so none can be absolute: all require exceptions. And some
quite common human rights interpretations lead to conclusions completely
contrary to PP objectives.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face="Comic Sans MS">Couldn't PP work on its
idealistic goals without becomon a human rights specialist? Yes, but then stick
to item 1) above and use *political* arguments.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face="Comic Sans MS">OTOH, for true human rights
infringements, go to court. The terms may be long, but the threshold for the
ECHR is low. (Sorry for non-Europeans and Belarussians)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>reinier</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=david.arcos@gmail.com href="mailto:david.arcos@gmail.com">David
Arcos</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">Pirate Parties
International -- General Talk</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:44
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [pp.int.general] Translation
of the Pirate Manifesto</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>That's not true at all.<BR><BR>1) The Manifesto was voted, the
Amends were voted.<BR><A
href="http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_First_Voting_Cast_Votes"
target=_blank>http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_First_Voting_Cast_Votes</A><BR>Every
pirate party chose the way to vote the amends. In Spain, each member of the
party voted each amends.<BR><BR>2) The Manifesto (and the Amends) was not done
by a single-man in a single-session. It was discussed and discussed and
discussed for several months, and there was one person representing each
party:<BR><A href="http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#Who"
target=_blank>http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#Who</A><BR><BR>3)
The Manifesto wan't gonna be definitive, but a first version to be improved
over the time.<BR><BR>4) The Manifesto failed because it was boycotted by
PiratPartiet. Yes, I know that they were in pre-elections and had millions of
things to do, and I can understand that the manifesto was not a priority. But,
in the long term, the Manifesto is very important.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Reinier Bakels <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:r.bakels@planet.nl">r.bakels@planet.nl</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=im>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>I am becoming a bit confused: is there actually a
document, a sentence, anything, that is (more-or-less) "official" and on
what (almost) all the Pirate Parties agree?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>No,
afaik there is not. By the end of 2008, the manifesto "A-B-C" project was
abandoned by most contributors after heavy flame wars, and in the end is
really was the project of a single man, Carlos Ayala. During the Helsinki
meeting early this year, it was *not* discussed at all. Carlos was
disappointed, but he was pretty alone.<BR><BR>The Uppsala document (composed
during the summer 2008 meeting) wasn't so much intended as *the* PP
"Manifesto", but more the by-product of a (very useful) workshop, a mental
exercise to better understand PP goals and strategies.<BR><BR>I wrote a one
page "PPI Principles" document for the Helsinki meeting (see attachment),
more to provide an alternative than because I believe(d) that a manifesto
was (or is) a priority. We spent little time on it in the meeting,
fortunately. The purpose of a political party is to gain votes, and a
"philosophical" documents like a manifesto should be judged from that
perspective: does it help to get more votes? As you know, actually
deceptively few voters read party programs.<BR><BR>I won't repeat here why I
believe that the A-B-C manifesto's are not suitable as *the* PP manifesto
(else I unleash another flame war, I am afraid).<BR><FONT
color=#888888><BR>reinier
<BR></FONT><BR>____________________________________________________<BR>Pirate
Parties International - General Talk<BR><A
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target=_blank>http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>____________________________________________________<BR>Pirate Parties
International - General
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