<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div>Hi Fabio,</div><div><br></div>This discussion was on the topic last November:<div><br></div><div><a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/2009-November/005147.html" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/2009-November/005147.html</a></div>
<div><br></div><div><a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/2009-November/005147.html" target="_blank"></a>There were however no word from PPSE, I tend to think they were too busy with other issues rather then a lack of opinion. </div>
<div><br></div><div>There are similar systems such as the "Section control" system in Rotterdam and the "Congestion Zone" in London where speed and insurance issues are identified via the speed cameras as you can read in the old thread. These systems could of course be connected to future surveillance systems such as INDECT and that would be the beginning of the real surveillance state in my opinion although projects for tracking every car with GPS such as in NL are in stasis at the moment as Reinier pointed out. They would just blame it on a suitable EU directive etc. that exists or will soon why we have to stop projects like INDECT now!</div>
<div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.indect-project.eu/" target="_blank">http://www.indect-project.eu/</a></div><div><a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6210255/EU-funding-Orwellian-artificial-intelligence-plan-to-monitor-public-for-abnormal-behaviour.html" target="_blank">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6210255/EU-funding-Orwellian-artificial-intelligence-plan-to-monitor-public-for-abnormal-behaviour.html</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>Feel free to join our recently created INDECT Taskforce to discuss it further, just drop a mail to <a href="mailto:indect-tf@pp-international.net" target="_blank">indect-tf@pp-international.net</a>.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>- Nicolas</div><div> PPI Member</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Fabio Reinhardt <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:fr@piratenpartei.de" target="_blank">fr@piratenpartei.de</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Reinier Bakels <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:r.bakels@planet.nl">r.bakels@planet.nl</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hey you guys,<br>
<br>
I 've just seen IBM commercials advertising the IBM traffic "solution"<br>
in Stockholm. It says that every license plate is fotographed as the<br>
car enters the city. Here is the movie and the comcept:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33T7VxT2O40" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33T7VxT2O40</a><br>
<a href="http://www.bitkom.org/files/documents/Presentation_Krogdahl_IBM_08_11_07.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.bitkom.org/files/documents/Presentation_Krogdahl_IBM_08_11_07.pdf</a><br>
<br>
Well, first I would like to know what you think of that and if the<br>
Swedish Pirate Party has been focusing on that topic lately. Then,<br>
what bigger implications does it have for solutions to the traffic<br>
problems all over Europe (and further) - I am thinking on the<br>
Netherlands where the cars are supposed to be completely monitored<br>
soon - and are there approaches to think of systems that do not rely<br>
on surveillance? If - of course - I didn't missunderstand something<br>
and the Swedish Pirates are actually fine with it.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Fabio from Germany<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
On the Dutch situtation:<br>
- Dutch road pricing plans lately became ever more politically controversial. And now that the government resigned, the system is unlikely to be implemented anytime soon. Note that the road pricing project did not intend to follow the whereabouts of people (but admittedly one never knows the real, covert purposes). Road pricing intended to incite people not to use the road during rush hour unless necessary, and to make taxation more honest, based on the actual use of roads rather than the possession of cars. Not everybody trusts tthe government to be honest though: cars traditinally always were a cash cow for taxation. The benefit (for the government) is the low "elasticity": people don't stop using cars if taxes increase.<br>
<br>
Anyway, people imho don't need monetary incentives to avoid traffic jams: they do so anyway.<br>
<br>
- Recently there was turmoil because the police kept photographs of licence plates longer than allowed by law. The (now resigned) Minister of the Interior simply proposed to chaneg the law. (She is one of the winners of this years'Dutch "Big Brother" prizes).<br>
<br>
- In the past years, Dutch police chiefs voiced various plans for "electronic moats", to monitor everyone entering and leaving big cities. In my opinion, not just these plans are awkward, but the police chiefs fundamentally should *execute* laws, not *propose* laws, in a state that claims not to be a police state.<br>
<br>
Perhaps we should look at it from the positive side: any plans for systems to reduce traffic burden/and or more "honest" car taxation are bound to fail if people don't trust the government an believe such projects are just a pretext to implement systems to monitor people constantly.<div>
<div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
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