Hi<div><br></div><div>At first thanks a lot for the feedback and the statements so far.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Reinier Bakels <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rbakels@ffii.org">rbakels@ffii.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="im"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
In sum, I believe that there are tough policy questions for pirates<br>
that need an answer short term. Plans for the 22nd century can wait. A rough vision is enough.<br>
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could you please point out how this relates to Liquid Feedback?<br>
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</blockquote></div>
I am totally confused. Do you distinguish "liquid feedback" from "liquid democracy"?</blockquote><div>Yes i must say that is a point in speaking about liquidfeedback. Of course liquidfeedback is not supposed to accomplish proxy-voting and direct political processes in means of liquid democracy in general. For mostly practical reason it works with a certain set of rules defined by few parameters (e.g. times for certain processes or parts of it; terms of use in general; quori; implementation in partystructures) wich are not always in sync with more theoretical specs for liquid democracy systems. For at least one issue there is already a development in terms of setting up a LD paradigm. LiquidFeedback uses a voting system working with free preferences along with the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method">Schulze-method</a> for example. U'll see that there are differences but not without reason.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> Is there any point in advocating just internal liquid democracy?</blockquote><div>Oh yes as we believe there is. If you would just take the educational effect on smaller oder less smaller ^^ groups of interests, ngo's, local projects, maybe schools, universities for account you must admit that there is good chance in developing new forms and solutions for more participative democratic systems with political educated and motivated participants. Wich is exactly what we need to prevent ourselves from making the same mistakes wich brought us together in party in the first place like maybe a general disagreement between cultures within the same society because not dynamic political processes, let's say maybe in copyright issues? forgiveness pls ^^</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> Anyway, Dutch PP was set up mistakenly wit h a *reduced* democracy that prevents ordinary members to vote directly. Under Dutch association law, such a structure is allowed, but it is notmally only used for associations of > 100000 members.<br>
</blockquote><div>Thats sad. I say that because i strongly believe there are better ways even if it means to improvise with the actual law. Anyway a system like LF is not working without a closed group of participants and at least a general agreement in how to use it and commitment so to speak. </div>
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Anyway, I am allergic for ideas that pirates should change the political system itself.</blockquote><div>You have point there because i am allergic to people speaking of a political systems. Wich means structure, wich means editing and managing, wich means algorithms and automatism. If you may see it that way: In the end there are not many political forces who are free to speak about changing structure at all. For now we have this freedom partly within structures and mostly from without. I think we need to use this freedom now before it will be gone, sublimented into structure.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> Because the situation widely varies by country</blockquote><div>As i said you can easily change the defining parameters of LF for your own purposes and regulations in law as long as you are willing to accept that it can not have an open circle of users and only is fun when it has a meaning.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">, it is not straightforward to propose a better alternative to present-day structures, and getting them accepted is tedious.<br>
</blockquote><div>I think it is very worth a try and the best way for getting things accepted may always be being a good example to others. </div><div><br></div><div>martin</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
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reinier <br></font><div><div></div><div class="h5">
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