I am strongly opposed to any notion of positive discrimination. I think rejecting someone because (s)he is of a gender, a race, or anything I do not like is wrong, but promoting this person because (s)he is of such a gender/race/anyhing is kind of still considering him/her as "inferior" or "weak".<br>
<br>I think Eric is right when he says the problem of the "lack" of women will not be fixed by creating a women group, and I am afraid people who invite women would even more easily treat them as different. "You're a women ? That's cool, we have a group for you !"<br>
<br>That would place the gender above everything else. We would of course consult the group regarding women questions, and probably show one or two in the media… but the rest of the time they would remain on the side.<br>
<br>For this reason, creating a group for women would be a wrong idea, and could lead to a "ghetto" situation.<br><br>However, the proposition of Bogo is not such a group for women. It is a group to increase women's visibility, and it is open to everybody, including men.<br>
<br>I think that as long as we do not fall in the stereotype "women go the the WOPI section, men in the regular" and leave anybody free to participate or not in each, there is no problem in having such a group.<br>
<br>I do not need to be black or gay or whatever to fight racism and other discriminations. Even if I am a man, I can want to defend Woman's rights. And so I must not be excluded of any group of that kind in PP because of my gender. If this is clear, WOPI is ok for me.<br>
<br>And I would be happy to have such a group to correct me as soon as I am sexist or my "male behavior" causes problem, or to have a vision on some topics from the "Woman" side. Especially if it is based on reflexion about Human/Woman Rights, Freedom, and other things we aim to preserve.<br>
<br>For example, many european countries are trying to impose that citizens show their face in public places, in the name of the women victim of religious integrism. (I am convinced one of the main objectives, if not the first, is instead to prepare for the "society of tomorrow", where there will be security cameras everywhere, and everybody not identifiable by them will be considered as guilty…) It would be interesting to have people studying such projects, and able to deal with every aspect, including here a woman's point of view.<br>
<br>On another subject, it is important to remain calm and open. I am afraid victims of discrimination tend to be excessive in their feelings, and some might lose objectivity. The above exemple with the burqa is a very good one, as many intelligent women tend to defend a law against a symbol of discrimination, regardless of what this law also means for other Fundamental Rights.<br>
<br>Reacting with feelings is the best way to get manipulated. I am convinced that a lot of artists are not even conscious of what is done in the name of protecting their work, they simply see pirates as people who do not want to reward them in any way but still want the thing, which makes them angry. So they do not try to understand why these pirate people are complaining about this or this new law to protect their rights when the day comes…<br>
<br>I am closing this parenthesis, but please, do not let feelings alone guide your speach and reflexion.<br><br>As far as I understand, everybody agrees on the objective (we must interest more pirate, and especially women !) and everybody has good suggestions about how to reach it.<br>
<br>Here is my summary of the reflexion so far :<br>1) We should not make people run away by discussing endlessly about very precise things that most people don't even understand, care, or simply stand. So, let's try to get our ideas clear, understandable, and attractive to the largest audience.<br>
2) We can create groups such as WOPI to enhance a side of the Pirate Party that is a bit… obscure ? neglected ? as long as we do not divide the movement by putting its members on a side, and as everybody is free to participate.<br>
<br>Maxime<br>(France)<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bogo@piratskapartia.bg" target="_blank">bogo@piratskapartia.bg</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
There are a lot of countries that never let a woman to do politics. This is the idea of the project - to increase women's visibility in <acronym title="Free/Libre and Open
Source Software">our movement</acronym> not to create a "gheto" or something.<br><font color="#888888"><br><br>Bogo</font><div><div></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Amelia Andersdotter <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:teirdes@gmail.com" target="_blank">teirdes@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div>On 3 May 2010 07:46, Eric Priezkalns <<a href="mailto:eric.priezkalns@pirateparty.org.uk" target="_blank">eric.priezkalns@pirateparty.org.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
> I feel this is a mistaken way to deal with a symptom, not a root cause.<br>
> Yes, there are too few women in the pirate movement. There are also too few<br>
> older people, too few poor, too few ethnic minorities.<br>
> These people are not in the pirate movement not because of a failure to<br>
> 'mainstream' or 'empower' or any other jargon words that might be spoken by<br>
> a New York Professor of Sociology. They are not in the pirate movement<br>
> because the pirate movement makes too little effort to appeal to them. In<br>
> short, we do not try to explain our policies in ways that appeal beyond a<br>
> audience that is predominantly young, male, white and reasonably privileged.<br>
> The worst thing we could take is to take women, or any other group, and<br>
> place them in a 'special interest' faction. Instead of modifying the policy<br>
> message to make it more appealing to a wider audience, they will just be<br>
> pushed into creating 'special interest' policies. I dislike the idea of<br>
> that intrinsically, but more importantly, that approach never seems to work<br>
> in politics. Voters can see through it and it does not appeal to them. In<br>
> short, if you cannot come up with a political philosophy with a core message<br>
> that is appealing to women or any other subset of society, you cannot<br>
> address that by creating specialist policies around the edges. People can<br>
> innately see the special interest policies do not fit with the philosophy<br>
> and so become sceptical about them, and rightly so.<br>
<br>
</div>Bullshit.<br>
<br>
Voters don't want to vote for a party that doesn't seem inclusive.<br>
<div><br>
> If we want more women etc in the movement, the right place to begin is not<br>
> by creating a ghetto for them. The right place is to look at ourselves and<br>
> ask what is in our behaviour that is a barrier to inclusion. It is not hard<br>
> for me to see examples of behaviour that leads to exclusion from the pirate<br>
> movement.<br>
<br>
</div>The "ghetto" could also act as a group for women who can't be arsed<br>
waiting for the non-sexist society to emerge to adapt to and see<br>
through male behavioural flaws.<br>
<br>
Women tend not to be that interested in party politics to begin with,<br>
but one thing that has been working in the past is actually creating<br>
women's groups inside the movement. Uh. How to say. It's a problem on<br>
the male side of the story, with behaviour and all, but it's also a<br>
universal problem and a female problem that segregation is assumed.<br>
<br>
In fact, even looking at the way we raise children, you will notice<br>
how children are separated quite early on. It makes sense for women<br>
and men to have their own groups - or to tear down the sexist barriers<br>
hindering the way to the future! The question is whether the Pirate<br>
Party is the right arena for anarchofeminism or not.<br>
<br>
/amelia<br>
<div><br>
><br>
> From: "Bogomil \"Bogo\" Shopov" <<a href="mailto:bogo@piratskapartia.bg" target="_blank">bogo@piratskapartia.bg</a>><br>
> Date: 2 May 2010 12:26:34 BST<br>
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
> <<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
> Subject: [pp.int.general] Women Pirates project<br>
> Reply-To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
> <<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
><br>
><br>
> Hey again,<br>
> Here is some ideas and tasks for a project called WOPI. I am looking forward<br>
> to see you participating.<br>
> <a href="http://int.piratenpartei.de/User:Bogomil/Projects/WOPI" target="_blank">http://int.piratenpartei.de/User:Bogomil/Projects/WOPI</a><br>
><br>
><br>
</div>> ____________________________________________________<br>
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><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
</div><font color="#888888">Amelia Andersdotter<br>
Lissabon-MEP<br>
+46 722063698<br>
____________________________________________________<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div><div><div></div><div>-- <br>Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov<br>Pirate Party Bulgaria<br><a href="http://piratskapartia.bg" target="_blank">http://piratskapartia.bg</a><br>
<br>Blogger, FOSS and Mozilla advocate, Digital Rights Warrior.<br>
<br>Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/bogomep" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/bogomep</a><br>Blog: <a href="http://mozgull.bogomil.info" target="_blank">http://mozgull.bogomil.info</a><br>CV: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/bogomil" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/bogomil</a><br>
GPG: 0x03CCF750<br><br>
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Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
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