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In Germany for example a general strike put down a military putch in
the early 19twenties. One of the first things Hitler did when he got
power was to dismember the Unions (#3 after Communists and Social
Democrats).<br>
<br>
On 22.11.10 20:12, Francisco George wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTi=bTpD-WVUxN4yvyShTmy2WuPmA7YRUzq2dxcyb@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">General Strikes, a strike directed to protest against
<b>government rules</b>, are not that common in the US, in fact I
think General Strikes never occured in the US. Tell me if I'm
wrong. If we except the strike in Boston against the British
empire that wanted to increase the taxes on TEA, if I do remember
well that protest turns in the Idenpendancy war against UK war
that would set the spark of the French revolution a few years
later.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But here, in Europe, they are quite common and are part o
the history of any Sindicate movement.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Francisco George<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
2010/11/22 <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback (Kenneth
Peiruza)<br>
2. Re: PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback (Marcus Kesler)<br>
3. Re: Terminology: P2P (John Fanning)<br>
4. Re: Terminology: P2P (Marcus Kesler)<br>
5. Re: Terminology: P2P (Maxime Rouquet)<br>
6. Re: PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback (Richard
Stallman)<br>
7. Re: PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback (Choms)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 15:03:49 +0100<br>
From: Kenneth Peiruza <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kenneth@contralaguerra.org">kenneth@contralaguerra.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop
Payback<br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:4CEA7845.6060801@contralaguerra.org">4CEA7845.6060801@contralaguerra.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed<br>
<br>
IMHO, what Anonymous did is neither illegal nor immoral.
At least where<br>
I am.<br>
<br>
As explained before, it is the net-equivalent to a street
protest.<br>
Remember that street protests were illegal, immoral,
forbidden and<br>
prosecuted for centuries. Nowadays everyone allows them on
"the free<br>
world", and they are still prosecuted in dictatorial
regimes. It took<br>
more than a century to achieve this right, don't start
splitting it<br>
between the net and outside it.<br>
<br>
I expected Pirate Parties to fight for right-equivalence
inside and<br>
outside the net, but this discussion shows how some
pirates believe in<br>
apartheid between these two words.<br>
<br>
We are fighting because we have less freedom on the net
than outside it,<br>
then, are we against strikes? Are we against our right to
strike? are we<br>
accepting the lobby's crafted vocabulary?<br>
<br>
Remember what do the companies say about the protesters:
they damage the<br>
economy, they don't let the people to go to work and so
on: bullshit,<br>
it's a worker's right. Destroying stuff is a different
thing, that is a<br>
sabotage, and sabotage should be illegal.<br>
<br>
A netstrike is not a sabotage, it's a strike, as when it
ends,<br>
everything keeps running as expected, so:<br>
<br>
1) it is not an attack: this is just using their words,
crafted to make<br>
us look like criminals. This is as mislead as talking
about Intellectual<br>
Property, when debating about Copyright, trademarks or
Patents.<br>
2) it is not illegal here (and it shouldn't be illegal to
reload a<br>
website, we should fight for this right worldwide)<br>
3) shouldn't be forbidden if it is announced and it's not
forever, as a<br>
strike.<br>
4) moral values are bullshit, as they differ from culture
to culture and<br>
from time to time. It wasn't morally unacceptable to kill
your child in<br>
the Roman empire, neither IS unlawful to kill a traitor in
a war,<br>
neither killing a white guy who had sex with a non-white
in the British<br>
colonies 200 years ago, so, moralists stay at home,
please, as moral<br>
expires and law is made by the lobbies.<br>
5) Traditional strikes do also cause a Denial of Service,
and nobody<br>
says it is a DoS, people names it Strike.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Kenneth<br>
<br>
<br>
Al 22/11/10 09:50, En/na Justus R?meth ha escrit:<br>
> I disagree here. You don't 'punish' unlawful/immoral
actions by other<br>
> unlawful/immoral actions.<br>
><br>
> On 22.11.10 09:34, Richard Stallman wrote:<br>
>> Shutting down publishers' web sites is a nasty
thing to do, but the<br>
>> publishers have done much nastier things to
people. For instance,<br>
>> setting up technological products to restrict
their users,<br>
>> and imprisoning people who make technology to
break those restrictions.<br>
>><br>
>> When anyone objects to the former, we should
respond by pointing out<br>
>> the latter.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
> ____________________________________________________<br>
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 09:00:24 -0600<br>
From: Marcus Kesler <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marcus@d-usa.info">marcus@d-usa.info</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop
Payback<br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<AANLkTi=<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:4DGqzz1ius1q-dPB0OeGurgG7BCDi1EYqF-Q_@mail.gmail.com">4DGqzz1ius1q-dPB0OeGurgG7BCDi1EYqF-Q_@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
Howdy, I am sorry if part of my response is due to a loss
in<br>
translation. I realize that we are having this discussion
in English<br>
and that many of the participants are form multiple
countries.<br>
<br>
If you want to compare the DoS with real world examples,
then I think<br>
we need to make some distinctions clear:<br>
<br>
DoS vs. Strike: A DoS is not the same as a strike. A
strike is<br>
initiated by the employees that are refusing to work to
lobby for a<br>
change. It is an action between employees and employer,
not anything<br>
close to Anon vs. RIAA et al.<br>
<br>
DoS v. Street protest: In my opinion, a DoS is also very
different<br>
from a street protest. The real world equivalent would not
be marching<br>
on the street, it would be sitting inside the doorway of
the business<br>
and physically preventing customers who want to enter the
store from<br>
doing so. You are not on public property anymore, you are
actually<br>
entering the building. The requests have to reach the
physical servers<br>
hosting the information, they do not only affect the
connection (ie:<br>
street). Even in jurisdictions where protest are legal,
even if a<br>
permit is required, you can still be charged with
interfering with a<br>
business. And even if you protests are legal, if you enter
a business<br>
to prevent customers from entering you can still be
charged with<br>
breaking the law due to trespassing.<br>
<br>
On the issue of "civil disobedience":<br>
<br>
The United States Pirate Party, as well as the Pirate
Party of<br>
Oklahoma, simply cannot condone any unlawful actions, even
if we think<br>
that the laws are completely and utterly wrong. For the
Pirate Party<br>
(in the US) to even appear to endorse these actions would
mean the end<br>
of the Pirate Party (in the US). There is a reason why the
Green Party<br>
in the US is not calling for a great "Smoke In", because
it would mean<br>
the end of the Green Party. We can have a month long
philosophical<br>
discussion about "is Anon right or not", but if it is
illegal then the<br>
Pirate Party (in the United States) cannot condone these
actions.<br>
<br>
For me as the administrator of the Pirate Party of
Oklahoma I fully<br>
support the letter asking Anon to stop, if for no other
reason as to<br>
make it very clear that the PPOK will make sure that our
activities<br>
are fully within the scope of the law.<br>
<br>
For me it is not an action against Anon, it is an action
to protect<br>
the Pirate Party in Oklahoma.<br>
<br>
Marcus Kesler<br>
Administrator<br>
Pirate Party of Oklahoma<br>
<br>
On 11/22/10, Kenneth Peiruza <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kenneth@contralaguerra.org">kenneth@contralaguerra.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
> IMHO, what Anonymous did is neither illegal nor
immoral. At least where<br>
> I am.<br>
><br>
> As explained before, it is the net-equivalent to a
street protest.<br>
> Remember that street protests were illegal, immoral,
forbidden and<br>
> prosecuted for centuries. Nowadays everyone allows
them on "the free<br>
> world", and they are still prosecuted in dictatorial
regimes. It took<br>
> more than a century to achieve this right, don't
start splitting it<br>
> between the net and outside it.<br>
><br>
> I expected Pirate Parties to fight for
right-equivalence inside and<br>
> outside the net, but this discussion shows how some
pirates believe in<br>
> apartheid between these two words.<br>
><br>
> We are fighting because we have less freedom on the
net than outside it,<br>
> then, are we against strikes? Are we against our
right to strike? are we<br>
> accepting the lobby's crafted vocabulary?<br>
><br>
> Remember what do the companies say about the
protesters: they damage the<br>
> economy, they don't let the people to go to work and
so on: bullshit,<br>
> it's a worker's right. Destroying stuff is a
different thing, that is a<br>
> sabotage, and sabotage should be illegal.<br>
><br>
> A netstrike is not a sabotage, it's a strike, as when
it ends,<br>
> everything keeps running as expected, so:<br>
><br>
> 1) it is not an attack: this is just using their
words, crafted to make<br>
> us look like criminals. This is as mislead as talking
about Intellectual<br>
> Property, when debating about Copyright, trademarks
or Patents.<br>
> 2) it is not illegal here (and it shouldn't be
illegal to reload a<br>
> website, we should fight for this right worldwide)<br>
> 3) shouldn't be forbidden if it is announced and it's
not forever, as a<br>
> strike.<br>
> 4) moral values are bullshit, as they differ from
culture to culture and<br>
> from time to time. It wasn't morally unacceptable to
kill your child in<br>
> the Roman empire, neither IS unlawful to kill a
traitor in a war,<br>
> neither killing a white guy who had sex with a
non-white in the British<br>
> colonies 200 years ago, so, moralists stay at home,
please, as moral<br>
> expires and law is made by the lobbies.<br>
> 5) Traditional strikes do also cause a Denial of
Service, and nobody<br>
> says it is a DoS, people names it Strike.<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
> Kenneth<br>
><br>
><br>
> Al 22/11/10 09:50, En/na Justus R?meth ha escrit:<br>
>> I disagree here. You don't 'punish'
unlawful/immoral actions by other<br>
>> unlawful/immoral actions.<br>
>><br>
>> On 22.11.10 09:34, Richard Stallman wrote:<br>
>>> Shutting down publishers' web sites is a
nasty thing to do, but the<br>
>>> publishers have done much nastier things to
people. For instance,<br>
>>> setting up technological products to restrict
their users,<br>
>>> and imprisoning people who make technology to
break those restrictions.<br>
>>><br>
>>> When anyone objects to the former, we should
respond by pointing out<br>
>>> the latter.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>>
____________________________________________________<br>
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
><br>
> ____________________________________________________<br>
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:22:25 -0500<br>
From: "John Fanning" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:john@netcapital.com">john@netcapital.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Terminology: P2P<br>
To: "'Pirate Parties International -- General Talk'"<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID: <06f001cb8a59$18413480$48c39d80$@com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
It is moronic. The internet itself runs p2p.<br>
<br>
john<br>
<br>
- I don't think a country would be monoric to actually say
P2P itself is<br>
illegal.<br>
<br>
John W Fanning<br>
Chairman Netcapital<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:john@netcapital.com">john@netcapital.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://facebook.com/gninnaf" target="_blank">facebook.com/gninnaf</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/john_fanning%0A781-925-1600"
target="_blank">twitter.com/john_fanning<br>
781-925-1600</a> Direct<br>
650-814-8800 Cell<br>
<br>
<br>
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-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general-bounces@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general-bounces@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general-bounces@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general-bounces@lists.pirateweb.net</a>]
On Behalf Of<br>
Justus R?meth<br>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:42 AM<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
Subject: [pp.int.general] Terminology: P2P<br>
<br>
Just a quick thing that I read multiple times, and would
like to get<br>
accross:<br>
<br>
- I don't think a country would be monoric to actually say
P2P itself is<br>
illegal. I for one enjoy downloading stuff like Ubuntu via
torrents, for<br>
example. Now sharing copyrighted material, on the other
hand, is illegal<br>
in a few countries, may that be P2P or by other means. I
think it is<br>
important to distinguish between the two, as it is legally
(!) not the<br>
same thing. If we don't distinguish between the two, how
can we expect<br>
lawmakers from traditional parties to do that?<br>
<br>
Thx for reading this.<br>
-J<br>
____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 09:40:03 -0600<br>
From: Marcus Kesler <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marcus@d-usa.info">marcus@d-usa.info</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Terminology: P2P<br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:4CEA8ED3.4070101@d-usa.info">4CEA8ED3.4070101@d-usa.info</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
But most of the special interest groups are moronic enough
to pretend<br>
that it is only used for criminal purposes.<br>
<br>
On 11/22/2010 9:22 AM, John Fanning wrote:<br>
> It is moronic. The internet itself runs p2p.<br>
><br>
> john<br>
><br>
> - I don't think a country would be monoric to
actually say P2P itself is<br>
> illegal.<br>
><br>
> John W Fanning<br>
> Chairman Netcapital<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:john@netcapital.com">john@netcapital.com</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://facebook.com/gninnaf" target="_blank">facebook.com/gninnaf</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/john_fanning" target="_blank">twitter.com/john_fanning</a><br>
> 781-925-1600 Direct<br>
> 650-814-8800 Cell<br>
><br>
><br>
> CONFIDENTIAL PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION ALL RIGHTS
RESERVED.<br>
> INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS: Unless otherwise
specified, all ideas,<br>
> creative concepts and opinions, including<br>
> any attachments, as well as the selection, assembly
and arrangement thereof,<br>
> are the sole property of Netcapital.com LLC<br>
> ? 2010, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. The content of this
email is the property of<br>
> Netcapital.com LLC and is<br>
> protected by U.S. and international copyright and
other intellectual<br>
> property laws. You may view, download, print and<br>
> retain a copy of pages of this email only for your
own personal use. Except<br>
> as expressly provided above, you may not<br>
> use, download, upload, copy, print, display, perform,
reproduce, republish,<br>
> modify, license, post, transmit or distribute any<br>
> information from this email in whole or in part
without our prior written<br>
> permission. If you wish to obtain permission to<br>
> reprint or reproduce any materials appearing here
contact the sender. All<br>
> rights not expressly granted herein are reserved.<br>
><br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general-bounces@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general-bounces@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general-bounces@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general-bounces@lists.pirateweb.net</a>]
On Behalf Of<br>
> Justus R?meth<br>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:42 AM<br>
> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> Subject: [pp.int.general] Terminology: P2P<br>
><br>
> Just a quick thing that I read multiple times, and
would like to get<br>
> accross:<br>
><br>
> - I don't think a country would be monoric to
actually say P2P itself is<br>
> illegal. I for one enjoy downloading stuff like
Ubuntu via torrents, for<br>
> example. Now sharing copyrighted material, on the
other hand, is illegal<br>
> in a few countries, may that be P2P or by other
means. I think it is<br>
> important to distinguish between the two, as it is
legally (!) not the<br>
> same thing. If we don't distinguish between the two,
how can we expect<br>
> lawmakers from traditional parties to do that?<br>
><br>
> Thx for reading this.<br>
> -J<br>
> ____________________________________________________<br>
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
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> ____________________________________________________<br>
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
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<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:53:30 +0100<br>
From: Maxime Rouquet <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:maxime.rouquet@partipirate.org">maxime.rouquet@partipirate.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Terminology: P2P<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:4CEA91FA.3020000@partipirate.org">4CEA91FA.3020000@partipirate.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 11/22/2010 01:16 PM, Brendan Molloy wrote:<br>
> It is basically illogical to ban an entire concept,
because copyright<br>
> infringement is rampant using the client/server model
(RapidShare et<br>
> al), peer-to-peer (DC++, Gnutella, ED2K, BitTorrent)
and the<br>
> sneakernet.<br>
<br>
That is not completely illogical. Our enemies are mostly
intermediaries<br>
in music or movies distribution that are afraid because
there are<br>
becoming useless.<br>
<br>
P2P is a greater enemy to them than direct download or
streaming,<br>
because it makes people understand we do not need
centralized<br>
distribution with such intermediaries anymore.<br>
<br>
Direct download and streaming sites make money, they can
be more easily<br>
taken down, taken control of, or heavily taxed in the
benefit of these<br>
obsolete intermediaries. P2P is free and decentralized,
which is in<br>
complete contradiction with their way of doing. So if they
can have it<br>
disappear, they will.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:36:12 -0500<br>
From: Richard Stallman <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rms@gnu.org">rms@gnu.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop
Payback<br>
To: Justus R?meth <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:squig@dfpx.de">squig@dfpx.de</a>><br>
Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:E1PKZNE-0004FW-O1@fencepost.gnu.org">E1PKZNE-0004FW-O1@fencepost.gnu.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15<br>
<br>
I disagree here. You don't 'punish' unlawful/immoral
actions by other<br>
unlawful/immoral actions.<br>
<br>
I think we are not talking about the same issue. You seem
to be<br>
talking about whether Operation Payback is right or wrong.
I am<br>
saying that question is a distraction from the real issue,
and we<br>
should not be distracted.<br>
<br>
If our adversaries are citing the actions of Operation
Payback to<br>
paint themselves as victims and win support for their
oppressive<br>
plans, that is a fallacious argument. How should we
refute it?<br>
<br>
It is a common practice for those with power to deflect
attention from<br>
their big wrongs by focusing condemnation on the smaller
wrongs of<br>
people opposed to them. The "moderate" opposition,
fearing being<br>
associated with this criticism, often bends over backwards
to condemn<br>
those smaller wrongs. By doing so, it supports the
distraction<br>
campaign.<br>
<br>
Whatever we say about Operation Payback's DDOS attacks, we
should not<br>
make them the focus our attention. Instead, we should put
that issue<br>
in perspective by showing that the publishers are doing
far nastier<br>
things. Society should put a stop to them. Then it can
look at<br>
smaller issues such as DDOS attacks (if they continue).<br>
<br>
--<br>
Richard Stallman<br>
President, Free Software Foundation<br>
51 Franklin St<br>
Boston MA 02110<br>
USA<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.fsf.org"
target="_blank">www.fsf.org</a>, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.gnu.org"
target="_blank">www.gnu.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:14:45 +0100<br>
From: Choms <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:choms@botmania.net">choms@botmania.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop
Payback<br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:7104D1AF-83CD-4D8F-BF3F-1D95D09FE5C7@botmania.net">7104D1AF-83CD-4D8F-BF3F-1D95D09FE5C7@botmania.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
<br>
El 22/11/2010, a las 16:00, Marcus Kesler escribi?:<br>
<br>
> Howdy, I am sorry if part of my response is due to a
loss in<br>
> translation. I realize that we are having this
discussion in English<br>
> and that many of the participants are form multiple
countries.<br>
><br>
> If you want to compare the DoS with real world
examples, then I think<br>
> we need to make some distinctions clear:<br>
><br>
> DoS vs. Strike: A DoS is not the same as a strike. A
strike is<br>
> initiated by the employees that are refusing to work
to lobby for a<br>
> change. It is an action between employees and
employer, not anything<br>
> close to Anon vs. RIAA et al.<br>
<br>
As long as I know, a General Strike is against state, not
employees against their companies, so... what's the
difference between a General Strike and a DDoS who protest
against some laws (state) and companies (part of the power
of the state)?<br>
<br>
><br>
> DoS v. Street protest: In my opinion, a DoS is also
very different<br>
> from a street protest. The real world equivalent
would not be marching<br>
> on the street, it would be sitting inside the doorway
of the business<br>
> and physically preventing customers who want to enter
the store from<br>
> doing so. You are not on public property anymore, you
are actually<br>
> entering the building. The requests have to reach the
physical servers<br>
> hosting the information, they do not only affect the
connection (ie:<br>
> street). Even in jurisdictions where protest are
legal, even if a<br>
> permit is required, you can still be charged with
interfering with a<br>
> business. And even if you protests are legal, if you
enter a business<br>
> to prevent customers from entering you can still be
charged with<br>
> breaking the law due to trespassing.<br>
<br>
Inside the building? that, refereed to computers, it's
called cracking... go inside a system and broke it from
inside, ant yes, that is illegal... Make petitions from
Outside to a server is more like ringing the bell for a
lot of people at same time... so the people inside the
building doesn't know if open the door or not... like the
demonstration in front of MCU :P<br>
<br>
So is erroneous your statement, is not private property
(unless you think your internet line is private property
of your ISP). Also, in a normal strike people also
prevents workers and customers to enter the shop.<br>
<br>
><br>
> On the issue of "civil disobedience":<br>
><br>
> The United States Pirate Party, as well as the Pirate
Party of<br>
> Oklahoma, simply cannot condone any unlawful actions,
even if we think<br>
> that the laws are completely and utterly wrong. For
the Pirate Party<br>
> (in the US) to even appear to endorse these actions
would mean the end<br>
> of the Pirate Party (in the US). There is a reason
why the Green Party<br>
> in the US is not calling for a great "Smoke In",
because it would mean<br>
> the end of the Green Party. We can have a month long
philosophical<br>
> discussion about "is Anon right or not", but if it is
illegal then the<br>
> Pirate Party (in the United States) cannot condone
these actions.<br>
<br>
I agree with this part, but I refer to Stallman's mail...
It's simply a distraction method... Payback is unrelated
to any Pirate Party, why are you making a relationship
between both groups sending a open letter about it? If is
not our problem, why we have to intervene?<br>
<br>
><br>
> For me as the administrator of the Pirate Party of
Oklahoma I fully<br>
> support the letter asking Anon to stop, if for no
other reason as to<br>
> make it very clear that the PPOK will make sure that
our activities<br>
> are fully within the scope of the law.<br>
><br>
> For me it is not an action against Anon, it is an
action to protect<br>
> the Pirate Party in Oklahoma.<br>
<br>
Really I understand you want to protect your PP, but you
have to admit that the letter was unnecessary and
offensive for that group. There's another ways (in the
case that, after this conversation you still think that
the letter was necessary) to say the same thing without
offending people.<br>
<br>
Salu2<br>
<br>
><br>
> Marcus Kesler<br>
> Administrator<br>
> Pirate Party of Oklahoma<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
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End of pp.international.general Digest, Vol 45, Issue 47<br>
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a>
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