Hi all,<div><br></div><div>DdOS attacks are NOT illegal in Spain, at least until 23rd of december of this year.</div><div><br></div><div>The only legal problem you can have with those, for the moment, is a civil trial if the attackee can proove he has suffered economic losses caused by the attack.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Anyway, the situation in Spain is so tense for the moment on the subject of Copyright, Net Neutrality, Ley de SINDE (a local bill to close website that links to protected material), ACTA (te be voted or not by EP on 11/24) and now COICA) that common people are really frustrated because their voices are not heard by the politicians (we've been qualified by the Spanish Senate of being " An external and degrading factor") that I can understand why some are taking so extreme actions.</div>
<div><br></div><div>It is true that the Spanish press has not been too harshed on the subject, most of them only talked about it when SGAE, the Culture Ministry and Promusicae has been under Anonymous attack. Bloggers have also different opinions, some didn't supported it, some first disapproved and then change their mind others did totally approved it.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In Spain most of the ones that approved it compared them to Strikes, why in IRL life there is a right to do Strikes and there is not in the digital world. Why workers that blocks roads, traffic in cities, block industries or commercial sites are doing it without being punished or it. In the Last General Strike in Spain most of all important and national Newspaper were blocked from reaching the public.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Why can't we in the digital world have the same oppotunities to raise our protests?</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not supporting strong actions both in real life and virtual life, but I do understand that when people are not heard and not taken into consideration by politicians, sometimes they can have strong reactions.</div>
<div><br></div><div>THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION and NOT the one of the SPANISH PIRATE PARTY(even I'm one of the 9 members of the National Comittee)</div><div><br></div><div>Best Regards</div><div><br></div><div>Francisco George</div>
<div>Jean-Francois George</div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2010/11/22 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net</a>></span><br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback (Choms)<br>
2. Terminology: P2P (Justus R?meth)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:22:04 +0100<br>
From: Choms <<a href="mailto:choms@botmania.net">choms@botmania.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback<br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:F8D700A9-5958-449C-BAEB-A822823F90A1@botmania.net">F8D700A9-5958-449C-BAEB-A822823F90A1@botmania.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
Anyway, there's NO relationship between Payback and Pirate Party... Pirate Party would never do DDoS, this discussion is about the way of "criminalize" Payback.<br>
If they aren't a political party, and their method of protest is legit, as have been said on this list lots of times, why we need to get involved on something completely unrelated to the party? At all, Payback is just... people... they can (and will) do what they want, it's called freedom.<br>
<br>
Salu2<br>
<br>
El 22/11/2010, a las 11:11, boboniboni boboniboni escribi?:<br>
<br>
> Historically, many parties advocated illegal things that were not<br>
> immoral. Like it has been said, P2P may be unlawfull in certain<br>
> countries and situations, but it is not immoral.<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Justus R?meth <<a href="mailto:squig@dfpx.de">squig@dfpx.de</a>> wrote:<br>
>> But isn't the whole point of the Pirate Parties to fight these things within<br>
>> the law? I personally have no big problems with them, but for a party to<br>
>> advocate illegal things seems kinda missing the purpose of that party.<br>
>><br>
>> (and P2P itself is anything but illegal)<br>
>><br>
>> On 22.11.10 10:41, boboniboni boboniboni wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> I agree with Mr. Stallman and Maxime.<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:35 AM, Maxime Rouquet<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:maxime.rouquet@partipirate.org">maxime.rouquet@partipirate.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The problem is that DRMs and everything are not unlawfull... More, they<br>
>>>> are<br>
>>>> protected by law !<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> And many things that are unlawfull are not immoral, for example<br>
>>>> peer-to-peer<br>
>>>> sharing.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Richard is right when he advises us to point out the nasty things our<br>
>>>> enemies have made put in the law. This is something every one of us can<br>
>>>> and<br>
>>>> should do first when we communicate, whatever we say about DDoS attacks<br>
>>>> or<br>
>>>> other things on a second part.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On 11/22/2010 09:50 AM, Justus R?meth wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I disagree here. You don't 'punish' unlawful/immoral actions by other<br>
>>>>> unlawful/immoral actions.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On 22.11.10 09:34, Richard Stallman wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Shutting down publishers' web sites is a nasty thing to do, but the<br>
>>>>>> publishers have done much nastier things to people. For instance,<br>
>>>>>> setting up technological products to restrict their users,<br>
>>>>>> and imprisoning people who make technology to break those restrictions.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> When anyone objects to the former, we should respond by pointing out<br>
>>>>>> the latter.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________<br>
>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
>>>>> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>>>>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ____________________________________________________<br>
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>>>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>> ____________________________________________________<br>
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>> ____________________________________________________<br>
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
>> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
>><br>
> ____________________________________________________<br>
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:41:45 +0100<br>
From: Justus R?meth <<a href="mailto:squig@dfpx.de">squig@dfpx.de</a>><br>
Subject: [pp.int.general] Terminology: P2P<br>
To: <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4CEA48E9.9060005@dfpx.de">4CEA48E9.9060005@dfpx.de</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Just a quick thing that I read multiple times, and would like to get<br>
accross:<br>
<br>
- I don't think a country would be monoric to actually say P2P itself is<br>
illegal. I for one enjoy downloading stuff like Ubuntu via torrents, for<br>
example. Now sharing copyrighted material, on the other hand, is illegal<br>
in a few countries, may that be P2P or by other means. I think it is<br>
important to distinguish between the two, as it is legally (!) not the<br>
same thing. If we don't distinguish between the two, how can we expect<br>
lawmakers from traditional parties to do that?<br>
<br>
Thx for reading this.<br>
-J<br>
<br>
<br>
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