
<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><br></div></blockquote><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>First and foremost conversations happen between individuals, it's our</span><br>

<span>primary way of communication.</span><br><span>Communication is essential to understanding one another.</span><br><span>Now the title of this email thread begins with "filing charges(...)"</span><br><span>On what basis?</span><br>

<span>The merit of holding the meeting in tunisia is more than practical,</span><br><span>it's a tour de force statement due to the events of this spring.</span><br><span>It's good marketing plain and simple.</span><br>

<span></span><br><span>However, Samir's behavior lends more space for ridicule instead of</span><br><span>internal camaraderie and a disability to show unity and strength</span><br><span>outwardly.</span><br><span></span><br>

<span>The personal attacks on Lola, the behavior shown in this thread and</span><br><span>many others are in formal organizations unlike ppi grounds for a</span><br><span>negative dismissal with prejudice of the person responsible, this. Is</span><br>

<span>also my recommendation.</span><br><span></span><br><span>Regards,</span><br><span>Robert Berencreuz</span><br><span></span><br><span>Sent from my iPhone</span><br><span></span><br><span>On 21 dec 2011, at 23:46, Andrew Norton <<a href="mailto:ktetch@gmail.com">ktetch@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br>

<span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>I've got to say, of all the emails and recriminations, I've seen,</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Brendan's makes the most sense.</span><br></blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>I think a big part of the issue comes down to the actions of the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Board, specifically, the co-Chairmen, since we have two of them.</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Except we don't, because one quit, and very little notice was made of</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>this. The point in my last email was that we now have four board</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>members, we elected 7, and yet there's been NO push notice to the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>list. The only way you'd know is if you went hunting for the</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>information yourself, and why would you do that unless you already</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>knew? Here, Samir, you really have no grounds to complain, since we</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>talked about this VERY issue almost a year ago, with Gregory, and we</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>BOTH criticised him heavily for his method of notifications, which</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>consisted of a small section of a wiki page on a larger topic, hiding</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the issue in amongst the rest of things.</span><br></blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Here's the biggest problem, that I for one was unaware that</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>nominations for locations was open, OR closed. Because this list,</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>arguably the most public way to notify everyone, was never used. If I</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>don't know, I can't talk to people about it. I can't encourage people,</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>or offer help and advice with hosting.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>What we don't know, we can't help fix. That's the biggest problem.</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>And unfortunately, Samir as (the one remaining) Co-chairman, it would</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>be your responsibility to make us aware, to keep us all informed. You</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>failed to do your job, so we couldn't do ours, and the result was the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>location choice.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">

<span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>I'm not happy about it myself, but the situation is of your making</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Samir, at least in part. Personally, if I'd been aware of the dates</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>and the submissions to-date (instead of them just being hidden away on</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the wiki (the equivalent of hiding the notice in the bottom of a</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>locked filing cabinet in a disused bathroom with a sign on the door</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>saying 'beware of the leopard')</span><br></blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Had I known of how things were ahead of time, I would have perhaps put</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>together a proposal for a virtual meeting. Thus ensuring that instead</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>of some of us being treated as 2nd class representatives and</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>participants (and almost always the same group of us, considering the</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>geographic proximity of location) then we would all be the same.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Finally, I have real problems with anyone that's attacking people</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>personally. Especially on non-relevant issues such as who is seeing</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>who. It's the lowest form of muck-raking. Now, I didn't get the email</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>itself (for some reason it's screwy and so some emails I haven't got)</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>but really I'm disgusted. Such attacks are the sign of someone acting</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>out of desperation, and I have nothing but the utmost contempt for</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>anyone that stoops to those sorts of activities.</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>PPI needs to be about doing. Right now, a lot of it has been about</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>posturing, and self-promotion, or promoting European parties. It's</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>main job, of facilitating communications between parties has, quite</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>clearly failed. Above all else, the issue at the heart of this</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>'debate' was one where proper communication could have solved the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>issues before they started. Instead, the person who brought this</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>complaint, is arguably guilty of doing the same thing that they</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>accused rthe last board of doing a year ago, and who promised to</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>rectify things if elected.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>So much for that..... Instead the Bureaucratic Process has taken over,</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>instead of actual logs, we have minutes, instead of issues openly</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>discussed, they're buried in said minutes, uploaded without notice.</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>And so we end up at this point.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>The question is, where do we go from here, and how. And how do we deal</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>with the multude of issues that have now been brought up?</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Above all though, PPI has *GOT* to start functioning like a real body,</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>an international body, and not just a 'isn't Europe Great, and we love</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>bureaucracy too, gosh aren't we important' kinda group, which is the</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>general impression I have gotten over the past 2 years. It has to</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>start actually DOING SOMETHING. First though, it has to start</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>communicating, and doing so effectively. Updating a wiki-page is NOT</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>communicating, and never has been, It's record-keeping at best,</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>nothing more.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Finally, I'd like to point out one more thing.</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>I'm aware of at least two different members of the press on this list,</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>there may be more. The decision to air personal grievances and</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>personal attacks is not only stupid beyond belief, but showing a high</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>level of incompetency, and a disregard for the purposes of the list. I</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>don't think anyone here tolerates it. To attempt to claim the moral</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>high ground though, when you are a primary cause of what you're</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>railing against, publicly, that's absolutely inexcusable, and shows a</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>complete lack of accountability. Considering that a large part of our</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>stance in general is about accountability, then the wisdom of having</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>such a person in a leadership role of any kind is one we should all</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>think hard about.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Andrew</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">

<span>(who is not at home, which is why this email is NOT signed)</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>____________________________________________________</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Pirate Parties International - General Talk</span><br>

</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a></span><br>

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