It took us over half a year to explain to the media/public that blocking DNS addresses is the wrong way to fight child pornography because it is ineffectual and easy to abuse, and we still haven't won the fight against data retention (even though we had support from the other 3 'small' German parties, the constitutional court (highest court in Germany) and plenty of academic articles supporting our cause, have fought for 5+ year, have the government consulting the CCC on a regular basis about all kinds of topics, and won 9% in the Berlin elections and are polling at 6-10% federally).<div>
So in short: Yeah, it is unlikely that we will convince that part of the public of fighting for the rights of MU customers is a good thing before the upcoming elections.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Choms <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:choms@botmania.net">choms@botmania.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Is really that hard to explain to your media "We condemn MU commercial model, but we defend user's rights and data privacy"? xD those are two topics non incompatible, it's not like one or the another, you can choose both xD <div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/1/29 Justus Römeth <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:squig@dfpx.de" target="_blank">squig@dfpx.de</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Again, I personally am for everything you do, and so is a large part of PPDE, I am sure. I am trying to explain why some parts are against it, and why it is not as big of a deal over here. Also, I don't think MU and MV had that many German customers, most users here use Rapidshare (or Dropbox) afaik, companies that are more careful not to violate US law.<div>
<br></div><div>I agree that 9 days is very very slow to come to a decision.<div><div><br><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Kenneth Peiruza <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kenneth@pirata.cat" target="_blank">kenneth@pirata.cat</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Then you have a huge trouble in decision-making... 9 days so far in
a hot topic related to your ideology...<br>
<br>
BTW, our lawyers have prepared a strategy through 2 complaints (in
Spain, that can be replicated in all EU countries + most Latin
American countries):<br>
<br>
- One, leaded by us, about personal data. This is probably going to
be won and will have little or no effect with US authorities, but
will be a moral victory. We are gonna push this one from Pirates de
Catalunya.<br>
- Another one, facilitated by us but not made by us, where MU
customers will be able to get an economic compensation. I can't tell
you more in an open list, but it's quite easy that MU customers will
have an economic compensation for unjustified damage. Hot news,
we're going to use copyright enforcement laws against them.<br>
<br>
<br>
Our lawyers are not amateur guys but the TOP-10 (all them) of
Spain's Internet Rights and anti-RIAA lawyers. We have specialists
in Spanish and European privacy laws + lawyers working in Spanish
Congress specialized in European laws + top consumer organization's
lawyers + at least 10 lawyers from #15M/#SpanishRevolution from
Barcelona, preparing "legal defense kits" for the affected users.<br>
<br>
I'd love to see what your voters think about you, abandoning 4M
German citizen's privacy and consumer's rights.<br>
<br>
Are you against case #1? and about customer rights in case #2?<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Kenneth<br>
<br>
Al 29/01/12 15:49, En/na Justus Römeth ha escrit:
<div><div><blockquote type="cite">
<div>Moin Kenneth</div>
<div><br>
</div>
We are (or rather our leadership is) slow, so actually there is
nothing decided yet.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>IMO all you write is true, but smaller PPs can win much more
than PPDE in this case, we already have our name out there.
Anyways, it's not like we actually oppose you, is it? Afaik
nobody official from PPDE has put forward an opinion to the
matter, everything else were just individual opinions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Having said that, the fact that the US is more of a police
state than we would like, and that it is unlikely anybody is
gonna get his data back is a shame, but probably nothing a court
ruling in Europe will change. And I doubt we could win a case in
the US (if we were to try that we should get the EFF on board,
however).<br>
<br>
Kind regards</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-J<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:40 PM,
Kenneth Peiruza <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kenneth@pirata.cat" target="_blank">kenneth@pirata.cat</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> PP-DE is acting
SHAMEFULLY in this case.<br>
<br>
What about the personal data of people using MU? didn't
you had a principle about defending privacy?<br>
<br>
Shame.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Al 29/01/12 15:37, En/na Choms ha escrit:
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">Presumption of innocence? Oh,
wait, that doesn't exists on the US... if so, imho,
you have to wait for a trial before condemn
someone... but who cares about justice? :)<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/1/29 Christian Hufgard
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pp@christian-hufgard.de" target="_blank">pp@christian-hufgard.de</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>On 29.01.2012 11:29, Josep Sànchez wrote:<br>
>> You are also allowed to lose your
money by investing in criminal<br>
>> stock companies.<br>
><br>
> That's not the actual situation. In my
country when anybody does any<br>
> action it is responsible for the
collateral damages it might cause, and<br>
> it's even more serious if they could have
avoided or previewed them and<br>
> didn't do it. It doesn't matter if its an
individual, a government<br>
> officer or a policeman.<br>
> Are laws different in your country and in
the USA?<br>
<br>
</div>
Don't know about the US, but in germany police
in nearly never made<br>
responsible for whatever they do. We had even
our parties server raided<br>
a couple of days before an election without any
consequences...<br>
<div><br>
> MU was not a "criminal company" *until*
Virginia State authorities told<br>
> the Feds to seize it.<br>
<br>
</div>
Of course they were, otherwise the hadn't been
raided. (A judge or a<br>
jury still might decide something different)<br>
<div><br>
> People could hire their services until
that moment<br>
> as they could do with any other company
in the net. Financial services,<br>
> ISP's and even US tax authorities were
operating normally with MU. Are<br>
> they also criminals?.<br>
<br>
</div>
What for was Al Capone sent to Alcatraz? Murder
or not paying his taxes?<br>
<div><br>
<br>
>> Well, that's your point of view. I
don't think the Feds or Virginia<br>
>> State are responsible to keep MU
running. And if the court determines<br>
>> the raid was illegal, they gonna have
to pay a pretty huge amount of<br>
>> money to Kim and his fellows.<br>
><br>
> First was a matter of money, now of who
has to run the service, what<br>
> next? :)<br>
<br>
</div>
Finally it's the matter of reason. If the law in
the US does not force<br>
the Feds to keep a service online they were told
to shut down, why<br>
should they do so?<br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Christian<br>
</font></span>
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