@ Rock: The UK is made of 4 countries: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland (see also the 4 UK FIFA members). However, each of this country has arguably less rights in domestic issues than a German Bundesland.<div>
<br></div><div>Other than that I would again like to point to my idea of changing the statutes so that in exceptional situations regional parties can become full members if the GA agrees (which is not black and white me thinks).<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Rock Neurotiko <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:miguelglafuente@gmail.com">miguelglafuente@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I think that the solution it's that all party of the country talks and takes decisions, and vote like a country.<div><br></div><div>I hope that it wouldn't be an utopy.</div><div><br></div><div>It would can be a comission to do it. The members of the comission of every party asks to his own party. Right now in Spain we are three parties, it's perfect to do it.</div>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">
<div><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/3/4 Dario <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:i@dario.im" target="_blank">i@dario.im</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
There is something I don't simply get: why must it be a black or white solution?<div><br></div><div>I suggested an idea based on agreement between pirate parties sharing "country recognised internationally" (I won't ask where this definition applies to countries like Kosovo, but it is not the main issue).</div>
<div><br></div><div>Each country can have several pirate parties. Indeed, this is already true in Spain and Germany, and potentially in USA and UK. Spanish pirate parties can agree to have "regional vote" (each party has a vote and full membership in PPI), while Germany can remain as "national vote" (only one vote, a "confederated" one). The same can apply to USA and UK.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Even we can agree in to allow sub-agrupation of votes in a way like PP-US as a whole agree to act as one but Texas (just the first state that popped in my head). Going far away, you can have PP-US East group and PP-US West group (for whatever reason you can imagine, although it is probably a weird example) being two votes and members of PPI.</div>
<div><br></div><div>This is a proposal based on agreement between adults, probably backed by e-democracry in several cases. There is no need to have a rigid rule when you can have one rule that enable to debate, agree and sign formally how different pirate parties relate between them in the same country.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">El 4 de marzo de 2012 18:01, Rock Neurotiko <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:miguelglafuente@gmail.com" target="_blank">miguelglafuente@gmail.com</a>></span> escribió:<div><div>
<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
A country recognised internationally.<div>UK have two: Scothland and England.</div><div><br></div><div>USA have 48 states, but it's just one country.</div><div>Spain have 19 CCAA, but it's just one country.</div>
<div>
<br></div><div>Imagine that every state of USA it's a country with vote... The PPI subjugated tu USA.</div><div><br></div><div>The only way to have an egalitarian PPI with votes, it's to make it by official country recognised internationally.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Cheers!</div><div><div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/3/4 Justus Römeth <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:squig@dfpx.de" target="_blank">squig@dfpx.de</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Careful! What is your definition of a country? (The UK is a state divided into countries, the US a country divided into states, and, going by German wording, Germany is a country divided by countries). <div>
<div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Rock Neurotiko <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:miguelglafuente@gmail.com" target="_blank">miguelglafuente@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I think that if there is a Pirate Party in a country, it should vote.<div><br></div><div>Of course, I said a country, not a part of it.<div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/3/4 Choms <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:choms@botmania.net" target="_blank">choms@botmania.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>imho, neither of all spanish territory pirate parties should have vote, even less after this deplorable spectacle where they all should be ashamed.<br>
</div><div><div><div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/3/4 Mozart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mozart.palmer@pirateparty.org.au" target="_blank">mozart.palmer@pirateparty.org.au</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Arial;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
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<span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>I like this suggestion: </div><div><div><span style="font-family:Arial"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:Arial">"I think one vote per country has worked quite well for PPI. In order to accomodate the situation in Spain I would suggest someone whom it is important to drafts an amendment of the PPI statutes that allows regional parties in exceptional circumstances to become ordinary members (maybe with only half a vote?) after the GA votes in favor of admitting that party as an ordinary member."</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Arial"><br></span></div></div><div><span style="font-family:Arial">But would say they should be given full vote when admitted. The situation in Spain does not seem to be working out at the moment, so a Pirate Confederation there is unlikely. They just don't seem to agree. And for now, PPES holds the Spanish vote I believe, even though PPCAT is a reportedly much larger party.</span></div>
<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Mozart.</div></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span> </div><div><div><br><div><div>On 05/03/2012, at 12:19 AM, Justus Römeth wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite">
<div>Hola Isabela, hola rest of Galician parties</div><div><br></div>While I understand the Galician/Catalonian position on this, and that circumventing the 1 voter per country makes totally sense for you, it just does not make sense from a German point of view:<div>
- Some local parties in Germany have more members than many national parties in other countries, going by member count alone is not a good starting point.<br>- It is unlikely to happen in the near future, but if there is a rift within PPDE towards our position to PPI regional parties could start to ask for votes, too. Unless the other parties grow exceptionally by then this would 'allow' PPDE to 'swamp' PPI with regional/local parties if we institutionalize what you propose, bringing the rift within PPDE to PPI.</div>
<div>- Even more problematic, an institutionalization of allowing regional parties into PPI could allow PPDE to effectively take over PPI if it would wish so. Not something I particularly would like to happen.</div><div>
<br> </div><div>So where does that leave us? The PPI rule of one country/one vote is obviously flawed when it comes to entities where it is unclear whether they are countries in our sense or not (Kosovo, Northern Cyprus, Flanders, Wallonia, and also Scotland are obvious examples). If you say that Catalonia and Galicia should get their own vote in PPI, why should Bavaria or Frisia not get one? But if they get one, why shouldn't Northern Frisia, the Sorbs, or Amsterdam (all entities that see themselves as somewhat different than the rest of their country), or Limburg and Lower Saxony (who see themselves as deserving the same rights as Bavaria and Friesland, since they are on the same political level within their country)?</div>
<div><br></div><div>I personally am not a big fan of the organization of politics with the concept of nations (I am a German, but I don't quite understand why I should feel closer to someone in Munich compared to someone in Vienna, Berne, Luxembourg, Eupen, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Prague or Wroclaw). But I accept that this ambiguous concept is accepted by the vast majority of other people, that today's politics deal with this concept, that it is important to a lot of people, and that I won't be able to fundamentally change it.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I think one vote per country has worked quite well for PPI. In order to accomodate the situation in Spain I would suggest someone whom it is important to drafts an amendment of the PPI statutes that allows regional parties in exceptional circumstances to become ordinary members (maybe with only half a vote?) after the GA votes in favor of admitting that party as an ordinary member. (Maybe you could include non-opposition by the 'affected' national party, too). There is no guarantee that such an amendment would pass, however. This would then allow the members of PPI to decide on a possible Kosovarian PP when there is one, and not force them to make such a decision now.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The more fundamental question is obviously whether there is a lot of use in having this discussion at all. Is an ordinary membership in PPI that important to PP-CAT and PP-GAL, keeping PPI's tasks and limitations in mind? Do PP-CAT and PP-GAL really disagree with PPES so much as far as PPI is concerned? Shouldn't this discussion instead focus on how we set up PPEU concerning national minorities (or at all), or how PPES could be reformed that it is not seen as such a big problem for the members of PP-CAT and PP-GAL?</div>
<div><br></div><div>-J<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Kenneth Peiruza <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kenneth@pirata.cat" target="_blank">kenneth@pirata.cat</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Hi Isabel,<br> <br> It would be great to see some Galician Pirates in the forthcoming GA. Please think about it! There's going to be 6 PP-ES delegates and 4 PP-CAT delegates there, so, we can have a nice time with a lot of Pilsen beer :)<br>
<br> <br> Regards,<br> <br> Kenneth<div><div><br> <br> On 04/03/12 10:59, Isabel Fernández wrote: <blockquote type="cite"> <pre>Hello Justus,
We don't think PPI's job regulate between pirates parties either. That's
why we said we'll declare nothing of the sort.
Our suggestion was based on the premise 'one legal territorial pirate
party - one vote' that we think it's a more fair than the actual
situation. We think PPI could give it some thought to this issue.
We'd love to send a delegate to the GA, but rumours are saing that we'll
face elections next autumn at Galician Parlament and still there's a lot
work to do... we're not sure we can attend to Prague. Generally rumours
on this subject turn out to be true at the end. Maybe next time we are
able to send Galician Delegation.
Kind Regards,
Isabel Fernandez.
On 03/03/12 10:51, Justus Römeth wrote:
</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre>Thank you Isabel (and the rest of PP-GAL),
I don't think PPI's job is to regulate between individual pirate parties,
but rather to keep the movement growing, by providing infrastructure and a
place to meet for pirates who's country does not have a PP, and by helping
them through the early stages of forming a party. Therefore I don't think a
model that would give PPDE ~20 times as much voting power as the next
biggest party (PPSE is still not a member) would be appropriate.
That is not to say that the current model of PPI concerning the situation
in Spain is optimal. It is not. I think your proposed solution would make
sense for something like PPEU, or a PPI with a much broadened scope (as
well as institutions like the EP, but that is a different matter). As of
yet I don't see the latter happening, however.
Are you (PP-GAL) planning to send a delegate to the General assembly in
Prague?
Kind regards
Justus
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 3:09 AM, HerNenya <a href="mailto:isabel.fdez@mundo-r.com" target="_blank"><isabel.fdez@mundo-r.com></a> wrote:
</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre>I do apologize since last message was my first mail to this list. I'm
not used to deal w/ digests.
I repeat the message for better reading.
Best Regards to all,
Isabel Fernandez.
-----------------------------------------------
This is a message made by the members of public relations team for
PP-GAL. It is agreed by all the members of mentioned team and we want to
send it through our link in this mailing list of PPI members so it must
be understood in the name of PP-GAL party and not from the sender who
forwards this message.
Since there were direct references to PP-GAL in this list and the way we
organize ourselves in Spain, we consider it is important to be heard in
our oppinion before of the rest of pirates parties of the world.
First of all, we would like to say we are 2 months old as a political
party in Spain and our foundation is based on the structure of Spain as
a country formed by autonomies as such established in the Spanish
Constitution Act [1] in article #148 in order to organize ourselves in
the Spaniard territory. Moreover we have our own idiosyncrasy as
language and culture quite different from other spaniard territories.
Therefore we are an approved political party by the competent Ministry
with same rights and duties as PP-ES and PP-CAT.
As Kenneth from PP-CAT said in other previous message, we are
encouraging a confederation at country level to organize common tasks
that affect us as a nation such the cases of #megacomplaint and
#opColapso (fighting against Sinde-Wert law [2]) that we are supporting
PP-ES, PP-CAT and PP-GAL. Last week we have created a mailing list
called pirata-34 to discuss those affairs.
Regarding the subject about who can vote as a country or by the amount
of pirate members, we consider system of countries is not fair precisely
because of proportion of the population densities and pirates members. A
possible fair solution (as a suggestion) to this matter could be that
depending on the number of members from each pirate party, each party
will provide a proportional amount of the contingency fund of PPI, as
well, each party would have the proportional weight in PPI decisions.
Refering to mentions about how to organize internally the different
pirate parties in Spain, we considered that this mailing list is not the
appropiate place to discuss about it, so we are not going to declare
anything here.
[1] <a href="http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/IDIOMAS/9/Espana/LeyFundamental/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/IDIOMAS/9/Espana/LeyFundamental/index.htm</a>
[2] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_Sinde" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_Sinde</a>
Public Relations Team of PP-GAL.
<a href="http://piratasdegalicia.org/web/" target="_blank">http://piratasdegalicia.org/web/</a>
--
Isabel Fdez
GPG EA63DF8E
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div><span><font color="#888888">-- <br><div style="text-align:center"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">Miguel García Lafuente - Rock Neurotiko</span></div>
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</span></font></div><div style="text-align:center"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">"Libertad en lugar de miedo." - </span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">"Información libre, sociedad libre."</span></div>
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</span></font></div><div style="text-align:center"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">"Libertad en lugar de miedo." - </span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">"Información libre, sociedad libre."</span></div>
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