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I would personally either agree with 1 country 1 vote where Spanish
vote belongs to a confederation-umbrella or 1 territory-1 vote.<br>
<br>
Regards!<br>
<br>
K.<br>
<br>
On 04/03/12 19:55, Justus Römeth wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACWaH_Abd30PP_gdsaCw1U5Z9k2_dJZjMHKQSueP0HZW3NV_DQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">@ Rock: The UK is made of 4 countries: England, Wales,
Scotland and Northern Ireland (see also the 4 UK FIFA members).
However, each of this country has arguably less rights in domestic
issues than a German Bundesland.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>Other than that I would again like to point to my idea of
changing the statutes so that in exceptional situations regional
parties can become full members if the GA agrees (which is not
black and white me thinks).<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Rock
Neurotiko <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:miguelglafuente@gmail.com">miguelglafuente@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I think that the solution it's that all party of the country
talks and takes decisions, and vote like a country.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope that it wouldn't be an utopy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would can be a comission to do it. The members of
the comission of every party asks to his own party. Right
now in Spain we are three parties, it's perfect to do it.</div>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/3/4 Dario <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:i@dario.im" target="_blank">i@dario.im</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
There is something I don't simply get: why must it
be a black or white solution?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I suggested an idea based on agreement
between pirate parties sharing "country
recognised internationally" (I won't ask where
this definition applies to countries like
Kosovo, but it is not the main issue).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Each country can have several pirate parties.
Indeed, this is already true in Spain and
Germany, and potentially in USA and UK. Spanish
pirate parties can agree to have "regional vote"
(each party has a vote and full membership in
PPI), while Germany can remain as "national
vote" (only one vote, a "confederated" one). The
same can apply to USA and UK.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Even we can agree in to allow sub-agrupation
of votes in a way like PP-US as a whole agree to
act as one but Texas (just the first state that
popped in my head). Going far away, you can have
PP-US East group and PP-US West group (for
whatever reason you can imagine, although it is
probably a weird example) being two votes and
members of PPI.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is a proposal based on agreement between
adults, probably backed by e-democracry in
several cases. There is no need to have a rigid
rule when you can have one rule that enable to
debate, agree and sign formally how different
pirate parties relate between them in the same
country.<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">El 4 de marzo de 2012
18:01, Rock Neurotiko <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:miguelglafuente@gmail.com"
target="_blank">miguelglafuente@gmail.com</a>></span>
escribió:
<div>
<div>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
A country recognised internationally.
<div>UK have two: Scothland and England.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>USA have 48 states, but it's just
one country.</div>
<div>Spain have 19 CCAA, but it's just
one country.</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>Imagine that every state of USA
it's a country with vote... The PPI
subjugated tu USA.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The only way to have an egalitarian
PPI with votes, it's to make it by
official country recognised
internationally.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers!</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/3/4
Justus Römeth <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:squig@dfpx.de"
target="_blank">squig@dfpx.de</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
Careful! What is your
definition of a country? (The
UK is a state divided into
countries, the US a country
divided into states, and,
going by German wording,
Germany is a country divided
by countries).
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at
5:16 PM, Rock Neurotiko
<span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:miguelglafuente@gmail.com" target="_blank">miguelglafuente@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
I think that if there
is a Pirate Party in a
country, it should
vote.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Of course, I said
a country, not a
part of it.
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">2012/3/4
Choms <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:choms@botmania.net" target="_blank">choms@botmania.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0
0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>imho,
neither of all
spanish
territory
pirate parties
should have
vote, even
less after
this
deplorable
spectacle
where they all
should be
ashamed.<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">2012/3/4
Mozart <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mozart.palmer@pirateparty.org.au"
target="_blank">mozart.palmer@pirateparty.org.au</a>></span><br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0
0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Arial;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Arial;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>I like
this
suggestion: </div>
<div>
<div><span
style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:Arial">"I
think one vote
per country
has worked
quite well for
PPI. In order
to accomodate
the situation
in Spain I
would suggest
someone whom
it is
important to
drafts an
amendment of
the PPI
statutes that
allows
regional
parties in
exceptional
circumstances
to become
ordinary
members (maybe
with only half
a vote?) after
the GA votes
in favor of
admitting that
party as an
ordinary
member."</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div><span
style="font-family:Arial">But
would say they
should be
given full
vote when
admitted. The
situation in
Spain does not
seem to be
working out at
the moment, so
a Pirate
Confederation
there is
unlikely. They
just don't
seem to agree.
And for now,
PPES holds the
Spanish vote I
believe, even
though PPCAT
is a
reportedly
much larger
party.</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Mozart.</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span> </div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On
05/03/2012, at
12:19 AM,
Justus Römeth
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>Hola
Isabela, hola
rest of
Galician
parties</div>
<div><br>
</div>
While I
understand the
Galician/Catalonian
position on
this, and that
circumventing
the 1 voter
per country
makes totally
sense for you,
it just does
not make sense
from a German
point of view:
<div> - Some
local parties
in Germany
have more
members than
many national
parties in
other
countries,
going by
member count
alone is not a
good starting
point.<br>
- It is
unlikely to
happen in the
near future,
but if there
is a rift
within PPDE
towards our
position to
PPI regional
parties could
start to ask
for votes,
too. Unless
the other
parties grow
exceptionally
by then this
would 'allow'
PPDE to
'swamp' PPI
with
regional/local
parties if we
institutionalize
what you
propose,
bringing the
rift within
PPDE to PPI.</div>
<div>- Even
more
problematic,
an
institutionalization
of allowing
regional
parties into
PPI could
allow PPDE to
effectively
take over PPI
if it would
wish so. Not
something I
particularly
would like to
happen.</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>So where
does that
leave us? The
PPI rule of
one
country/one
vote is
obviously
flawed when it
comes to
entities where
it is unclear
whether they
are countries
in our sense
or not
(Kosovo,
Northern
Cyprus,
Flanders,
Wallonia, and
also Scotland
are obvious
examples). If
you say that
Catalonia and
Galicia should
get their own
vote in PPI,
why should
Bavaria or
Frisia not get
one? But if
they get one,
why shouldn't
Northern
Frisia, the
Sorbs, or
Amsterdam (all
entities that
see themselves
as somewhat
different than
the rest of
their
country), or
Limburg and
Lower Saxony
(who see
themselves as
deserving the
same rights as
Bavaria and
Friesland,
since they are
on the same
political
level within
their
country)?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I
personally am
not a big fan
of the
organization
of politics
with the
concept of
nations (I am
a German, but
I don't quite
understand why
I should feel
closer to
someone in
Munich
compared to
someone in
Vienna, Berne,
Luxembourg,
Eupen,
Amsterdam,
Copenhagen,
Prague or
Wroclaw). But
I accept that
this ambiguous concept
is accepted by
the vast
majority of
other people,
that today's
politics deal
with this
concept, that
it is
important to a
lot of people,
and that I
won't be able
to
fundamentally
change it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think
one vote per
country has
worked quite
well for PPI.
In order to
accomodate the
situation in
Spain I would
suggest
someone whom
it is
important to
drafts an
amendment of
the PPI
statutes that
allows
regional
parties in
exceptional
circumstances
to become
ordinary
members (maybe
with only half
a vote?) after
the GA votes
in favor of
admitting that
party as an
ordinary
member.
(Maybe you
could include
non-opposition
by the
'affected'
national
party, too).
There is no
guarantee that
such an
amendment
would pass,
however. This
would then
allow the
members of PPI
to decide on a
possible
Kosovarian PP
when there is
one, and not
force them to
make such a
decision now.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The more
fundamental
question is
obviously
whether there
is a lot of
use in having
this
discussion at
all. Is an
ordinary
membership in
PPI that
important to
PP-CAT and
PP-GAL,
keeping PPI's
tasks and
limitations in
mind? Do
PP-CAT and
PP-GAL really
disagree with
PPES so much
as far as PPI
is concerned?
Shouldn't this
discussion
instead focus
on how we set
up PPEU
concerning
national
minorities (or
at all), or
how PPES could
be reformed
that it is not
seen as such a
big problem
for the
members of
PP-CAT and
PP-GAL?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-J<br>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Sun, Mar 4,
2012 at 11:48
AM, Kenneth
Peiruza <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kenneth@pirata.cat" target="_blank">kenneth@pirata.cat</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0
0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
text="#000000"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Hi Isabel,<br>
<br>
It would be
great to see
some Galician
Pirates in the
forthcoming
GA. Please
think about
it! There's
going to be 6
PP-ES
delegates and
4 PP-CAT
delegates
there, so, we
can have a
nice time with
a lot of
Pilsen beer :)<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Kenneth
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
On 04/03/12
10:59, Isabel
Fernández
wrote:
<blockquote
type="cite">
<pre>Hello Justus,
We don't think PPI's job regulate between pirates parties either. That's
why we said we'll declare nothing of the sort.
Our suggestion was based on the premise 'one legal territorial pirate
party - one vote' that we think it's a more fair than the actual
situation. We think PPI could give it some thought to this issue.
We'd love to send a delegate to the GA, but rumours are saing that we'll
face elections next autumn at Galician Parlament and still there's a lot
work to do... we're not sure we can attend to Prague. Generally rumours
on this subject turn out to be true at the end. Maybe next time we are
able to send Galician Delegation.
Kind Regards,
Isabel Fernandez.
On 03/03/12 10:51, Justus Römeth wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<pre>Thank you Isabel (and the rest of PP-GAL),
I don't think PPI's job is to regulate between individual pirate parties,
but rather to keep the movement growing, by providing infrastructure and a
place to meet for pirates who's country does not have a PP, and by helping
them through the early stages of forming a party. Therefore I don't think a
model that would give PPDE ~20 times as much voting power as the next
biggest party (PPSE is still not a member) would be appropriate.
That is not to say that the current model of PPI concerning the situation
in Spain is optimal. It is not. I think your proposed solution would make
sense for something like PPEU, or a PPI with a much broadened scope (as
well as institutions like the EP, but that is a different matter). As of
yet I don't see the latter happening, however.
Are you (PP-GAL) planning to send a delegate to the General assembly in
Prague?
Kind regards
Justus
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 3:09 AM, HerNenya <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:isabel.fdez@mundo-r.com" target="_blank"><isabel.fdez@mundo-r.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<pre>I do apologize since last message was my first mail to this list. I'm
not used to deal w/ digests.
I repeat the message for better reading.
Best Regards to all,
Isabel Fernandez.
-----------------------------------------------
This is a message made by the members of public relations team for
PP-GAL. It is agreed by all the members of mentioned team and we want to
send it through our link in this mailing list of PPI members so it must
be understood in the name of PP-GAL party and not from the sender who
forwards this message.
Since there were direct references to PP-GAL in this list and the way we
organize ourselves in Spain, we consider it is important to be heard in
our oppinion before of the rest of pirates parties of the world.
First of all, we would like to say we are 2 months old as a political
party in Spain and our foundation is based on the structure of Spain as
a country formed by autonomies as such established in the Spanish
Constitution Act [1] in article #148 in order to organize ourselves in
the Spaniard territory. Moreover we have our own idiosyncrasy as
language and culture quite different from other spaniard territories.
Therefore we are an approved political party by the competent Ministry
with same rights and duties as PP-ES and PP-CAT.
As Kenneth from PP-CAT said in other previous message, we are
encouraging a confederation at country level to organize common tasks
that affect us as a nation such the cases of #megacomplaint and
#opColapso (fighting against Sinde-Wert law [2]) that we are supporting
PP-ES, PP-CAT and PP-GAL. Last week we have created a mailing list
called pirata-34 to discuss those affairs.
Regarding the subject about who can vote as a country or by the amount
of pirate members, we consider system of countries is not fair precisely
because of proportion of the population densities and pirates members. A
possible fair solution (as a suggestion) to this matter could be that
depending on the number of members from each pirate party, each party
will provide a proportional amount of the contingency fund of PPI, as
well, each party would have the proportional weight in PPI decisions.
Refering to mentions about how to organize internally the different
pirate parties in Spain, we considered that this mailing list is not the
appropiate place to discuss about it, so we are not going to declare
anything here.
[1] <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/IDIOMAS/9/Espana/LeyFundamental/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/IDIOMAS/9/Espana/LeyFundamental/index.htm</a>
[2] <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_Sinde" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_Sinde</a>
Public Relations Team of PP-GAL.
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://piratasdegalicia.org/web/" target="_blank">http://piratasdegalicia.org/web/</a>
--
Isabel Fdez
GPG EA63DF8E
____________________________________________________
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<span><font
color="#888888">--
<br>
<div
style="text-align:center"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">Miguel
García
Lafuente -
Rock Neurotiko</span></div>
<div
style="text-align:center"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">Vocal
de la Junta
Directiva
Nacional del
Partido
Pirata.</span></div>
<div>
<div
style="text-align:center">
<span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">Coordinador
de Jóvenes
Piratas en
Madrid.</span></div>
</div>
<div
style="text-align:center"><font
color="#333333" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
style="line-height:16px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div
style="text-align:center"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">"Libertad
en lugar de
miedo." - </span><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">"Información
libre,
sociedad
libre."</span></div>
<br>
</font></span></div>
<br>
____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties
International -
General Talk<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net"
target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International -
General Talk<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net"
target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div style="text-align:center"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">Miguel
García Lafuente - Rock
Neurotiko</span></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">Vocal
de la Junta Directiva Nacional
del Partido Pirata.</span></div>
<div>
<div style="text-align:center">
<span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">Coordinador
de Jóvenes Piratas en
Madrid.</span></div>
</div>
<div style="text-align:center"><font
color="#333333" face="Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
style="line-height:16px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">"Libertad
en lugar de miedo." - </span><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">"Información
libre, sociedad libre."</span></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General
Talk<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net"
target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div>Dario Castañé</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.dario.im"
target="_blank">http://www.dario.im</a> | <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/im_dario"
target="_blank">http://twitter.com/im_dario</a></div>
<br>
</font></span></div>
<br>
____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net"
target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div style="text-align:center"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">Miguel
García Lafuente - Rock Neurotiko</span></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">Vocal
de la Junta Directiva Nacional del Partido Pirata.</span></div>
<div>
<div style="text-align:center">
<span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">Coordinador
de Jóvenes Piratas en Madrid.</span></div>
</div>
<div style="text-align:center"><font color="#333333"
face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
style="line-height:16px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">"Libertad
en lugar de miedo." - </span><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:16px">"Información
libre, sociedad libre."</span></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general"
target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
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<br>
<pre wrap="">____________________________________________________
Pirate Parties International - General Talk
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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