Again, In order to stay believable we really need to show that we do not promote it because it (also) is in our interest, but because we genuinely think it is better. I do not disagree with your position here (even though there are failsafes like election treshholds and a direct and a list vote for the voters that migitate some of the problems you listed), I just think that we need to be very conscious on how we comunicate our position to the voter, and how we make sure that we do not change our position just because it suits our movement better (because that is exactly the kind of politics we do not want to do).<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Marko Mitrovic <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:marko.mitrovic@piratskapartija.com" target="_blank">marko.mitrovic@piratskapartija.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">*are smaller than<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Marko Mitrovic <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:marko.mitrovic@piratskapartija.com" target="_blank">marko.mitrovic@piratskapartija.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Yes, of course. I only pointed out that it <i>is </i>in our best interest anyway, on top of the fact that system is simply better(in my opinion at least).<br>
<br>Living in a country where proportional system is in place since fall of communists, it is only natural to me. There are some downsides like small parties with only goal to get few seats here and there that are only wasting space or relative danger of letting extremist parties in parliament, like Golden Dawn in Greece. Also, elected representatives in practice don't owe loyalty to voters but to their parties.<br>
<br>However, all those possible downsides are smaller that biggest flaw of first past the post and similar systems - creation of bipartisan/tripartisan political scene.<br><br>It might be hard to win bigger parties over as it is clearly in their <i>political interest</i> for system to remain the same and flaws proportional system can be easily found in their eyes.<br>
<br>I think we should be aiming at diversity and ability for new fresh ideas to break through that proportional system offers. It is also far more dynamic.<div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Justus Römeth <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:squig@dfpx.de" target="_blank">squig@dfpx.de</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Yeah, of course I meant proportional, sorry about that.<div><br></div><div>The thing is, I thought we wanted to do what is good for our societies, and develop our policies from there. If we only wanted to do what is best for us (personally or our party) we would want to gain 50% of the vote and then introduce FPTP everywhere, to promote stability and our world-view. I think if we genuinely want to argue that a proportional system is better we need to develop positions as to why it is better, hopefully with arguments that are theoretically strong enough to even win some people within the bigger parties over (as it is their current supporters we need to win over in order to really have an impact). That was the direction I was trying to aim with my Email.<div>
<div><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Marko Mitrovic <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:marko.mitrovic@piratskapartija.com" target="_blank">marko.mitrovic@piratskapartija.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">By representative you mean proportional system, right?<br><br>Well, from political point of view it is only logical that we favor proportional system as we are new emerging party and would find very hard to break into first past the post system any time soon. Proportional system is also more democratic as it makes possible for smaller parties to be represented in parliament. And proportional system would make it easier to shift to some more direct-democracy-ish system in the future.<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Justus Römeth <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:roemeth@gmail.com" target="_blank">roemeth@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></div>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div>
Moin Pirates<div><br></div><div>James O'Keefe, Captain of the Pirate Party of Massachusetts, stated in his <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI-zueFMqSY" target="_blank">interview</a> with Etopia news that he thinks that representative voting systems are something he as a Pirate would like to also see in the US. Is that something that is mirrored by other parties with similar political systems, like PPFR, PPUK or PPES? And if it is, is there a way we can develop and formulate a coherent position that could become part of future Pirate Party political statements? Do you think a statement on this position is desireable?</div>
<div>If it is, how do we make sure that a) there really is a change on this once we have electoral success (and not fail like the LibDems in the UK), and b) how can we reach out to other parties that share this position (like the Green parties in the UK, US and France)?</div>
<div><br></div><div>kind regards</div><span><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Justus Römeth</div>
</font></span><br></div></div>____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>
<br>____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
<br>____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div><br>____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>