<p>Then all we have to do is explainig in simple wording or like an easy digestable visual commercial video how this ethical body (in the perfect future) works, or how to give these abstract functions a 'face'</p>
<p>There should be 2 simultaneous parallel discussion threads.<br>
One I call PRACTICE (pragmatism), dealing with real time real life, no room for discussions about opinions, dogma or filosofies etc.-the domain of moral-<br>
Here problems are SOLVED. The tool liquid democracy is a good example (still misunderstood by MOST pirates)</p>
<p>Two I call ETHICA, where all timeless issues are gathered and kept open for discussion eternally.</p>
<p>This 'level' is beyond LQFB. And at the moment is this level in the hands of 'our' nominated politicians. <br>
This is the irony of life itself, we claiming AND trying to get rid of politics try to kill ourselves with it.</p>
<p>So the message is out now, instead of using our mind the old way deviding problems in good and bad, use the mind to morphe it to where it is no longer.</p>
<p>The difference is that the old system works with rigid binairy solutions, and the new system is the organic responsable solution.<br>
One is the baked clay that breaks and becomes rubble, the other is the dried clay that after breaking can be changed back in clay with water.</p>
<p>I see similair discussions/ethical problems in the French and the Dutch PP existing/rising. Therefor leeds to the conclusion that it is everybodies problem and we should tackle it. <br>
I gave a possible solution, any other alternatives?<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 18, 2012 1:15 p.m., "Antonio Garcia" <<a href="mailto:ningunotro@hotmail.com">ningunotro@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div dir="ltr">
> Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:33:27 +0200<br>> From: <a href="mailto:jakobsheep@gmail.com" target="_blank">jakobsheep@gmail.com</a><br>> To: <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] [RULING] 2012-5 (Validity of 2012 GA<br>> Conference)<br>> <br>> Precise, it is not the procedure ITSELF that is at risk, but the<br>> participants level of awareness.<br><br>
more precisely, because of the participants level of instruction, <br>awareness and lack of understanding of the necessity of shared <br>rules... the integrity of the procedure itself is at risk, and it <br>gets ignored way too many times to constitute a framework one can <br>
trust to hold to the supposedly applicable logic in such a way that <br>you can stick to the task of developing argumentation on top of it. <br>instead, you always have to argument against the complete void, from <br>zero, without regard to existing rules that may not be upheld. This <br>
way any argumenting becomes a daunting task... and everybody just <br>shuts up and endures whatever idiocy just not to embark on that <br>mission.<br><br><br>> To put this is simple words, the International Pirate Party is a beta<br>
> release still !!!<br><br>absolutely everything in the pirate parties is still beta (if not <br>alpha) release still. but still... beta is in our case far better <br>than nothing. the whole occupy/indignado/15m/dry movement and <br>
comparable other awareness movements that have arisen this last <br>year, and many that existed before, are struggling to get on their <br>feet and become influential citizens movements with social <br>relevance. some of their members have carried maximalist agendas <br>
pushing for the overthrow of constitutional frameworks and the <br>establishment of new constituent assemblies composed of plain <br>citizens, but they have miscalculated the overall composition of the <br>actual social mass... the ones being squeezed right now (the rest <br>
already was and already endured passively) is the middle class, and <br>they will simply not second an uprising based on anarchist logic, <br>they will not embrace the chaos that they have been made to think <br>would result from it... because they might lose much more than they <br>
want to keep in it. so, no matter how badly they want it... there <br>will be no anarchist uprising. the only alternative that remains is <br>to follow a reformist agenda.<br><br>these movements are mostly on the reformist track, asking their <br>
legislatures to enact laws that re-establish justice to the plain <br>clothes people, but at the same time, because they do not seem able <br>to find out why politicians and union cadres keep selling them out, <br>are very distrusting of these political and social structuring <br>
entities and demand to get them out of their way and be allowed to <br>govern themselves through direct democracy.<br><br>but of course they are not aware of a few facts:<br><br>1) the efficiency of a direct democracy is directly linked to the <br>
level of consciousness and commitment of the big majority of its <br>constituent members, and we are not scoring high on that these last <br>centuries, particularly since the emergence of the industrial <br>revolution. anarchy as a system requires individual people to be <br>
wise enough to adopt voluntarily what is best for the whole of <br>society, that is, to accept something that may not be optimal for <br>the concerned individual without others being forced to apply <br>coercion. freedom does not exist as long as logic and ethic can not <br>
perform unrestricted, because then any principled individual should <br>feel compelled to leave behind whatever pleasant free choice he may <br>be occupied with and start a quest to restore the logic and ethic <br>fabric of society, thus embarking on a mission imposed on him by <br>
circumstances... not based on free will thus.<br><br>2) the real reasons because of which some people again and again <br>become authoritarians and impinge on the equal rights of others to <br>build a privileged platform for themselves. as long as one has not <br>
solved this problem... his ideal society will have to provide <br>mechanisms to deal with this kind of people... becoming less ideal <br>in the process.<br><br>3) the fact that, when it has been assessed that overthrowing the <br>
constitutional frameworks is beyond reach under the present and <br>foreseeable future circumstances... only political action combined <br>with efforts to raise public awareness can yield results. at that <br>moment, the existing movements should recognise they did future <br>
society a disservice throwing all the political parties and <br>ideologies out of the window together with the rotting water the mix <br>had become because they could not envision how to clean up the mess.one<br><br>they may be lucky still... if we as pirates manage to convince them <br>
of the fact that we embarked on the proper analysis of these rotten <br>waters almost seven years ago now, and that we have found a way that <br>is at least worth a try... and may be highly successful. society has <br>wasted so many legislatures already, that it should not come over as <br>
an exaggerated bid to risk two or three more giving it a try... we <br>can do it worldwide almost at once.<br><br><br>> What are we as pirates compared to the majority? 1% of the voters?<br>> How can we then put that much emphasis on what we are (trying) to<br>
> create?<br><br>intelligent analysis and honest upfront argumentation along <br>understandable lines with political viability... should go a long way.<br><br>it does not matter how many (or not that many) we are now... nothing <br>
can kill an idea once its time has come... once known it spreads <br>quicker than wildfire. the only possible trouble is that it does not <br>succeed in spreading, that is why authoritarians want to control the <br>means of communication... all of them. But no technical means ever <br>
will be able to harness the freedom of a thinking mind, not even the <br>last one not to have been lobotomised... one spartacus is enough to <br>start all over again, and no control society can dream of becoming <br>that absolutely efficient. any smart outsmarts tyranny. <br>
<br>> At the best we, the pirates, come to a working political model. To<br>> defend this political structure in the future with the words "we,<br>> the pirate party HAVE (decided) what THE CORRECT system IS." What if<br>
> the others decide to change 'our' system? Here the problem of DOGMA<br>> rises, that what killed EVERY free thinking movement so far (read<br>> the history). This is the paradox of the individual versus the group<br>
> !!!!!! <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_schools_of_thought" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_schools_of_thought</a><br>> Collective anarchism does exists in the ideal but NOT in the<br>
> reality. So ANY given system is LIMITED to itself. So the real<br>> problem is to determine who of us is aware ENOUGH and SKILLED in<br>> communicating for these difficult syntheses.<br><br>i claim to have dedicated most of my life to sharpening awareness <br>
and dissecting the flaws of the system that oppresses us... the only <br>remaining problem is that while i can think almost everything with <br>my own brain... i can not do everything with only my two hands. and <br>besides, it does not work when you build a complete solution, <br>
package it in a.deb or .rpm and set it loose in the wild... it will <br>be overall too complex for ordinary people to start sniffing at it <br>and get convinced. you need the smarter people to give it a try and <br>become ambassadors for what they will have been able to accept as a <br>
correct system because of their ability to scrutinize the source <br>code. free software should be the exactly appropriate model to <br>bootstrap the launch of a free democracy, a system with all the <br>logic and the ethic still firmly attached to it, like it happens to <br>
be for free software. Free software and a free society should go <br>hand in hand.<br><br><br>> So the order in practicality should be BEFORE the actual voting there<br>> HAS to be a CONSENSUS. This is NOT the case so far, because the<br>
> principle of dictatorship of the majority has been applied. Correct<br>> me if I'm wrong.<br><br>you are not wrong... debate and consensus have been sidetracked and <br>are at risk of becoming sidetracked way more... orchestrated lack of <br>
time becoming the welcomed technology to be able to skip it all and <br>arrive at the point accessible without effort to the big masses... <br>the direct vote, if only tossing a coin or throwing dice.<br><br>the problem with tossing coins or throwing dice being that nothing <br>
warrants consistency between two or more different issues being <br>decided at the same or different times. it makes any kind of <br>coherence impossible, and instead of the self-organizing anarchy of <br>the all wise, you get the chaos of everybody always dedicating <br>
24h/day to achieve mere survival in the surrounding chaos. all back <br>to square one of civilization, enlightenment and any other <br>achievement of the human mind squandered by sheer stupidity, <br>survival of the fittest in the blackest of black holes... an <br>
idiocracy.<br><br>> Does this make sense?<br>> (By the way although I criticize ourself, this process we're going<br>> through is essential. See it as learning to swim.)<br><br>indeed. man, am i trying to swim upstream in all possible places at the same time ;) .<br>
<br>it's such a challenge that i am actually having fun.<br><br><br>antonio garcía<br>pp-es<br>(and world citizen)<br><br><br> <br>> On 18 August 2012 06:47, Zbigniew Łukasiak <<a href="mailto:zzbbyy@gmail.com" target="_blank">zzbbyy@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Anouk Neeteson <br>> <<a href="mailto:jakobsheep@gmail.com" target="_blank">jakobsheep@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> > Hi Andrew, I (obviously) was also not there. I am naïve, so I<br>
> (often without knowing) poke in mud and under the surface(s). I am<br>> again pleasently surprised with 1 an update and 2 you also show<br>> you can seperate one from the<br>> > other. Emotion from the intellect, the individual from the group.<br>
> > I'm not sure how to say it but logic and honesty WILL make it succeed. The<br>> > collective subconsience is finally moving into the collective conscience.<br>> > The old ways of thinking are convulging even through our fellow pirates. I<br>
> > don't want to preach (another) new age retorics, but listening and looking<br>> > around one can see things actually changing.<br>> > The new revolution is going to be a 'silent' one. No destruction but<br>
> > carefully keep that what is good functioning, improe what needs to be and<br>> > REPLACE what is wrong.<br>> ><br>> > Al the details are bollocks in the end if we can't change what needs to be<br>
> > changed before ANY PERMANENT change can take place. And that is replacing<br>> > the lie of our so called Free West into true DIRECT democratie. And that can<br>> > only happen with building trust and learning to communicate even better. In<br>
> > the end it is about the critical mass that true change will occur, and that<br>> > countdown is about how many truly honest and empathic people coorperate in<br>> > that spirit<br>> ><br>
> > The technology is available, we only lack excercise/experience and unity.<br>> ><br>> > I know how to get united, but not all pirates understand freedom. There is<br>> > NO TOTAL FREEDOM. Therefor must we define it. But that is a bridge too far<br>
> > because the 'uniting factor' of the pirate movement today is this undefined,<br>> > by everybody differently perceived abstract 'freedom'<br>> ><br>> > Oh dear, does that mean......?<br>
> > Yes we need a set of moral guides/codes for the individuals how to<br>> > coorperate and function. (like the netiquette)<br>> <br>> Well in this particular case I think the rules are already quite well<br>
> established - things like not judging your own case, including in the<br>> protocol everything that was said - not only what was said by some<br>> priviledged part of the participants (to be fair I believe that remote<br>
> participation was asking for trouble), not changing rules at the last<br>> moment and generally playing with the rules. There are pretty basic<br>> and very concrete things - I don't think you need to develop any<br>
> additional theory here.<br>> <br>> <br>> Cheers,<br>> Zbigniew<br>> <br>> <br>> --<br>> Zbigniew Lukasiak<br>> <a href="http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/</a><br>
> <a href="http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/</a><br>> ____________________________________________________<br>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br><div><div></div><hr>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:33:27 +0200<br>From: <a href="mailto:jakobsheep@gmail.com" target="_blank">jakobsheep@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] [RULING] 2012-5 (Validity of 2012 GA Conference)<br><br><div><br></div>Precise, it is not the procedure ITSELF that is at risk, but the participants level of awareness.<div><br></div><div>To put this is simple words, the Interntional Pirate Party is a beta release still !!!</div>
<div>What are we as pirates compared to the majority? 1% of the voters?</div><div>How can we then put that much emphasis on what we are (trying) to create?</div><div><br></div><div>At the best we, the pirates, come to a working political model. To defend this political structure in the future with the words "we, the pirate party HAVE (decided) what THE CORRECT system IS." What if the others decide to change 'our' system? Here the problem of DOGMA rises, that what killed EVERY free thinking movement so far (read the history). This is the paradox of the individual versus the group !!!!!! <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_schools_of_thought" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_schools_of_thought</a></div>
<div>Collective anarchism does exists in the ideal but NOT in the reality. So ANY given system is LIMITED to itself. So the real problem is to determine who of us is aware ENOUGH and SKILLED in communicating for these difficult syntheses.</div>
<div>So the order in practicality should be BEFORE the actual voting ther HAS to be a CONSENSUS. This is NOT the case so far, because the principle of dictatorship of the majority has been applied. Correct me if I'm wrong.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Does this make sense?</div><div><br></div><div>(By the way although I criticize ourself, this process we're going through is essential. See it as learning to swim.)<br><br><div>
On 18 August 2012 06:47, Zbigniew Łukasiak <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:zzbbyy@gmail.com" target="_blank">zzbbyy@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div>On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Anouk Neeteson <<a href="mailto:jakobsheep@gmail.com" target="_blank">jakobsheep@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Hi Andrew, I (obviously) was also not there. I am naïve, so I (often without<br>
> knowing) poke in mud and under the surface(s). I am again pleasently<br>
> surprised with 1 an update and 2 you also show you can seperate one from the<br>
> other. Emotion from the intellect, the individual from the group.<br>
> I'm not sure how to say it but logic and honesty WILL make it succeed. The<br>
> collective subconsience is finally moving into the collective conscience.<br>
> The old ways of thinking are convulging even through our fellow pirates. I<br>
> don't want to preach (another) new age retorics, but listening and looking<br>
> around one can see things actually changing.<br>
> The new revolution is going to be a 'silent' one. No destruction but<br>
> carefully keep that what is good functioning, improe what needs to be and<br>
> REPLACE what is wrong.<br>
><br>
> Al the details are bollocks in the end if we can't change what needs to be<br>
> changed before ANY PERMANENT change can take place. And that is replacing<br>
> the lie of our so called Free West into true DIRECT democratie. And that can<br>
> only happen with building trust and learning to communicate even better. In<br>
> the end it is about the critical mass that true change will occur, and that<br>
> countdown is about how many truly honest and empathic people coorperate in<br>
> that spirit<br>
><br>
> The technology is available, we only lack excercise/experience and unity.<br>
><br>
> I know how to get united, but not all pirates understand freedom. There is<br>
> NO TOTAL FREEDOM. Therefor must we define it. But that is a bridge too far<br>
> because the 'uniting factor' of the pirate movement today is this undefined,<br>
> by everybody differently perceived abstract 'freedom'<br>
><br>
> Oh dear, does that mean......?<br>
> Yes we need a set of moral guides/codes for the individuals how to<br>
> coorperate and function. (like the netiquette)<br>
<br>
</div></div>Well in this particular case I think the rules are already quite well<br>
established - things like not judging your own case, including in the<br>
protocol everything that was said - not only what was said by some<br>
priviledged part of the participants (to be fair I believe that remote<br>
participation was asking for trouble), not changing rules at the last<br>
moment and generally playing with the rules. There are pretty basic<br>
and very concrete things - I don't think you need to develop any<br>
additional theory here.<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Zbigniew<br>
<div><br>
<br>
--<br>
Zbigniew Lukasiak<br>
<a href="http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/</a><br>
<a href="http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/</a><br>
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