<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:garamond, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span>Simon,</span></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 16px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="background-color: transparent;"><span>Thanks for the link. I read it, agree with most especially the section: Constitution Is Not Enforceable By Law ... only honour. I will copy, edit thoroughly and paste it on <a href="http://apojigo.com/SIPP">S|PP</a>.</span></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;">shortly.</div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"
class="yui_3_7_2_16_1356221756504_52"><br></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_7_2_16_1356221756504_52">It is good to have this open discussion about exclusion policies, Italy, and how parties can exclude with just a quorum from 10% of a small group of Captains and crew. I will rewrite that section in S|PP bylaws.</div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_7_2_16_1356221756504_52"><br></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="yui_3_7_2_16_1356221756504_52"><br></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 18px;">I remain sincerely yours,</span></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 18px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 18px;"><br></span></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 18px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: transparent;"><span style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 18px; font-style: italic;">John Dickinson</span></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 18px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 18px;"><br></span></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 18px;">=access Since 1991 <br>"Be the change that you want <br>to see in the world." <br>M. K. Gandhi
</span><br></div><div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></div> <div style="font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Simon Frew <simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> john dickinson <jrdickinson@yahoo.com> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, December 22, 2012 3:45 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [pp.int.general] PP IT and Its Non-Democratic Organization<br> </font> </div> <br><div id="yiv1615867176"><div dir="ltr"><div>Here is our Constitution.<br><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://pirateparty.org.au/constitution/">http://pirateparty.org.au/constitution/</a><br><br></div>Membership is under section 3.<br></div><div class="yiv1615867176gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="yiv1615867176gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 10:37 AM, john dickinson <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="yiv1615867176gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: garamond, 'new york', times, serif;"><div style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:12pt;"><span>Simon,</span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;">
<span><br></span></div><div style="background-color:transparent;"><span>Thanks again for your involvement. I am unclear of your statement that the Country has an open door, all inclusive policy, but the Pirates in Australia have an open door to only those with the same ideas as the Pirates of Australia. Please clarify.</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;"><span><br></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;">
<span>and new ones, ty,</span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;"><span><br></span></div><div style="background-color:transparent;">
provocateur<br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;">idealist</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;">
inventor</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;">farmer</div><div class="yiv1615867176im"><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;">
<br></div><div style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:12pt;"></div><div style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:12pt;"> </div><div style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:12pt;">
<span style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:18px;">I remain sincerely yours,</span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;">
<span style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:18px;"><br></span></div><div style="font-size:18px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;"><span style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:18px;font-style:italic;">John Dickinson</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18px;background-color:transparent;font-family:garamond,;"><span style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:18px;"><br></span></div>
<div style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:18px;">=access Since 1991 <br>"Be the change that you want <br>
to see in the world." <br>M. K. Gandhi </span><br></div><div style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:12pt;"><br></div> </div><div style="font-family:garamond,;font-size:12pt;">
<div style="font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"><div class="yiv1615867176im"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Simon Frew <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au">simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> john dickinson <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>> <br> </div><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, December 22, 2012 3:17 PM<div>
<div class="yiv1615867176h5"><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [pp.int.general] PP IT and Its Non-Democratic Organization<br> </div></div></font> </div><div><div class="yiv1615867176h5"> <br>
<div><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Oh I see the misunderstanding.<br><br></div>We have an all inclusive Party in Australia, called the Commonwealth of Australia, the nation-state. The Pirate Party of Australia is a subset of that who have specific ideas for how things could be done differently.<br>
<br></div>The Commonwealth of Australia accepts all of the people you hold your door open for, as well it should.<br></div><div><br><br><div>On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:51 AM, john dickinson <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:garamond,;"><div><span>Simon,</span></div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div><span>Thanks again for your contributions toward inclusivity.</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div><div>
<span>My door is especially open to:</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>
<span>trolls</span></div><div><span>trools (correct spelling or was it meant to be troll?)</span></div>
<div><span>tools</span></div><div>
<span>truels</span></div><div><span>troggs</span></div><div>
<span>hobbits</span></div><div><span>frogs</span></div><div><div></div><div> </div><div>
<span>I remain sincerely yours,</span></div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div><span>John Dickinson</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div>
<div><span>=access Since 1991 <br>"Be the change that you want <br>to see in the world." <br>M. K. Gandhi </span><br></div><div>
<br></div> </div><div> <div style="font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"><div>
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Simon
Frew <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au">simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> john dickinson <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>> <br>
</div><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> Pirate Parties International -- General Talk <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>>; David Roote <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:davidroote@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:davidroote@gmail.com">davidroote@gmail.com</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, December 22, 2012 2:34 PM<div><div><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://pp.int.ge/">pp.int</a>.general] PP IT and Its Non-Democratic Organization<br>
</div></div></font> </div><div><div> <br>
<div><div dir="ltr"><div>So what would you do when those who don't support free speech vote to stop you from speaking?<br><br></div><div>What would you do when fascists start organising gangs to beat refugees as is happening in Greece? If they won a vote to do it as the Pirate Party would you join in?<br>
<br></div><div>Does the word Pirate mean anything? If so what?<br><br></div><div>I suspect you are just trolling...<br></div></div><div><br><br><div>On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:19 AM, john dickinson <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div><div>
<span>Simon,</span></div><div><span>Thks again. I will keep it short, if outsiders want to advise removal.</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div><div>
<span>Thanks to you and Mab, I know have several other kinds of people who are most welcome in my tent. It is open to anyone, so please keep them coming.</span></div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div><span>I open my door to ...</span></div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div><span>those who don't believe in free speech</span></div><div>
<span>spammers</span></div><div><span>center rights leaners</span></div><div>
<span>child rapists</span></div><div><span>mother rapists</span></div><div>
<span>father rapists</span></div><div><span>thieves</span></div><div>
<span>hookers</span></div><div><span>drug pushers</span></div><div>
<span>floppy eared, rescued from the docks, mongrel puppy rapists</span></div><div style="background-color:transparent;"><span>and especially refugees of all languages and religions</span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-size:16px;"> </span></div>
<div><div></div><div> </div><div>
<span>I remain sincerely yours,</span></div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div><span>John Dickinson</span></div>
<div><br></div><div><br>
</div> </div><div><div><div> <div> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Simon Frew <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au">simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> john dickinson <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>> <br><br> </font> </div> <br>
<div><div dir="ltr"><div><div>I'm pretty sure <i>none</i> of the organisations I listed believe in free speech.<br><br></div>The centre right guy <i>might</i>. As I said, anyone can change.<br></div><div><div><br><span style="font-size:12pt;">On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 8:50 AM, john dickinson </span><span dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>></span><span style="font-size:12pt;"> wrote:</span><br>
</div></div><div><span style="font-size:12pt;"><br></span></div></div><div><div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div><div>
<span>Simon,</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>
<span>Thanks for your opinion. I will defend differing opinions to my death. And thanks for adding to my list of people who will always be shown an open.</span></div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div style="background-color:transparent;"><span>My previous list
of </span>messengers who are welcome to join with their <span style="background-color:transparent;">ideas, and be</span><span style="background-color:transparent;"> included participation and vote...</span></div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div><span>Facists</span></div><div>
<span>Monarchists</span></div><div><span>Communists</span></div><div>
<span>Socialists</span></div><div><span>Radical Women</span></div><div>
<span>Unionists</span></div><div><span>Democrats</span></div><div>
<span>Republicans</span></div><div><span>Libertarians</span></div><div>
<span>Lyden LaRouchians</span></div><div><span>Ron Paulites</span></div><div>
<br></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>
<span>Thanks for your list below. I will encourage them also to join...</span></div><div><span> </span></div>
<div></div><div><span>conspiracy theorists</span></div>
<div><span>Social Democrats<br></span></div><div>
<span>Green Fascists </span></div><div><span>National Anarchists<br>
</span></div><div><span><div>
<span><span>member of another Party</span><br></span></div><div>
<span><span>new members if they feel they don't agree our platform</span></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;">
<span><span>hijackers</span></span></div></span></div><div><span>impersonators</span><br>
</div><div><span>mass-joiners<br></span></div><div>
<span>parasites<br></span></div><div><span>organised </span><span>take us over </span><span style="font-size:12pt;">attempters</span></div>
<div><span>hate filled venom </span><span>injectors</span><br>
</div><div><div><span>what they thought in the past<br></span></div>
</div><div><span>those who have been refused by other parties</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div><div>
<span>To which I will add these to my list of people who have a welcome door, open to join this pirate's party.</span></div><div>
<br></div><div><span>Those who firmly believe in Free Speech</span></div>
<div><span>Those who have read GETTING TO YES<br></span></div><div>
<span>Those who think there can be Peace on Earth in Eighteen Months</span></div><div>
<span>Those who want an end to all wars</span></div><div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div><span><br>
</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>
<span>I remain sincerely yours,</span></div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div><span>John Dickinson</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div>
<div><span>=access Since 1991 <br>"Be the change that you want <br>
to see in the world." <br>M. K. Gandhi
</span><br></div><div><br></div> </div><div> <div style="font-size:12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Simon Frew <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au">simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au</a>><div>
<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> john dickinson <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>>; Pirate Parties International -- General Talk <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>> <br>
</div><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, December 22, 2012 12:45 PM<div><div><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://pp.int.ge/">pp.int</a>.general] PP IT and Its Non-Democratic Organization<br>
</div></div></font> </div><div><div> <br>
<div><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Between that centre right guy and the weird conspiracy theorists, I wish Italian Pirates the best of luck!<br><br></div>Italian politics really is bizarre. Tell us all how it goes.<br><br></div>
<div>
<div>We have a few conspiracy theorists and a dodgy ex-politician in our Party, thankfully they don't have any real influence. We have been warned about the ex-politician by his former comrades.<br><br></div><div>There is a tradition of Marxist groups and Social Democrats mass-joining, hi-jacking and destroying emerging movements here in Australia. Being aware of this we built some defences into our Constitution. People aren't allowed to be a member of another Party and the National Council has the right to refuse new members if they feel the member doesn't agree our platform or organisation. In part we had to exclude members of other Parties to make sure we were OK to register. We have had to refuse a few people who are members of other Parties, they just liked us, and weren't an organised attempt to take us over.<br>
<br></div><div>I have seen Fascists try to impersonate and hijack a range of different movements, including Green Fascists and National Anarchists. Seems to be a strategy to attach themselves like a parasite and inject their hate filled venom into growing movements, they also seem to universally fail. I hope the tradition of failure continues.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, people can change and what they think now might have nothing to do with what they thought in the past. From the Google translations of those articles I assume that is not the case.<br>
<br></div><div>Other than Carlito's claims I don't see anything undemocratic in how Italian Pirates are running things. Maybe a few things could be done better, but who couldn't say that?<br><br></div><div>Cheers<br>
<br></div><div>Simon Frew<br></div></div></div><div><br><br><div>On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 7:01 AM, john dickinson <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div><div><span>Zbrigniew,</span></div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div><span>Please don't advise me to set a filter if I am not interested. It should be obvious, I am very interested in et al. I will read et al waiting for issues of outside the party to resume.</span></div>
<div><div></div><div> </div><div><span>I remain sincerely yours,</span></div><div>
<span><br></span></div><div><span>John Dickinson</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div>
<div><span>=access Since 1991 <br>"Be the change that you want <br>to see in the world." <br>M. K. Gandhi </span><br></div><div>
<br></div> </div><div><div> </div><div style="font-size:12pt;">
<div> </div><div dir="ltr"><div> </div><font face="Arial"><div> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Zbigniew Łukasiak <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:zzbbyy@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:zzbbyy@gmail.com">zzbbyy@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> john dickinson <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>>; Pirate Parties International -- General Talk <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, December 22, 2012 11:25 AM</div><div><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://pp.int.ge/">pp.int</a>.general] PP IT and Its Non-Democratic Organization<br>
</div></font> </div><div><div> <br>
On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 7:41 PM, john dickinson <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jrdickinson@yahoo.com">jrdickinson@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>> Dear et al,<br>><br>> Sure, I will reply to this message. This domination of the email list with<br>
> name calling and accusations does nothing to advance the cause of Pirates,<br>> unless the purpose of this list is to establish the reputation of Pirates as<br>> bickerers.<br>> I am new to the party, but I have been a pirate since the '60's, an honest<br>
> pirate in the true definition of the word.<br>> I joined WAPP, and after two meets decided to form another party. Without<br>> saying anything disparaging except that I could not say the acronym out<br>> loud, I wanted to use my resources to get members to the causes that I<br>
> thought were important and urgent. Following this list (I read everything) I<br>> feel that the important causes have
been placed on a shelf to be replaced by<br>> bickering.<br>> I formed the Seattle International Pirate Party, and I am embarking to<br>> encourage towns, communities and neighborhoods to form their own Parties. I<br>
> fly the flag on a half mast, verses the flag flying at half mast, to<br>> indicate that the cause is above the mast of my thoughts and opinions. I<br>> don't want to move the flag down so that it flies at half mast and then move<br>
> it out of my life because I might feel embarrassed by the petty/public<br>> attacks against others. I have a goal to gain 2o,ooo members in the next six<br>> months.<br>><br>> ? Is there a way to keep the bickering out of the public view? probably not.<br>
> I guess I am just ranting, but perhaps everyone should read Getting To Yes<br>> before self destruction.<br><br>I actually believe that this bickering as you describe it has a<br>purpose. The meaning of the word
democratic and above all Pirate<br>Party is far from being obvious and we need to discuss it before we<br>form something that could be called our consensus. If we don't reach<br>a consensus in these matters then sooner or later it will bring<br>
troubles - because you cannot have an organisation without identity<br>without defining what is acceptable and what is not.<br><br>It is true that this discussion could be done in a better looking way<br>- but it is better when it happens then when it did not, even if that<br>
means this public bickering. I hope people can set filters to their<br>mailboxes to filter it out if they are not interested.<br><br><br>--<br>Zbigniew Lukasiak<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/">http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/</a><br>
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Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
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