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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>I could not agree more.<br><br>But then, I am eagerly awaiting a Beppe Grillo in the Netherlands also.<br><br>I hope you can agree with that too.<br><br><br>Antonio.<br><br>> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 14:15:56 +0100<br>> From: thijs.markus@piratenpartij.nl<br>> To: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Transparency in the party<br>> <br>> Hey PP-IT, while you were busy proclaiming that you are in fact the one <br>> and only pirate party of Italy, Grillo got 25% of the vote on a platform <br>> incorporating the pirate platform. Maybe this should be a wake up call. <br>> Maybe you should spend some time actually being the pirate party of <br>> Italy - something tells me that part of that 25% could well have gone <br>> your way should you have taken less credit for being the pirate party of <br>> Italy and more time living up to your name. Just a thought. Of course, <br>> your best bet is to ignore this message as pointless trolling and carry <br>> on as you have before, agreeing with one another in your nice little <br>> comfortable circle where everyone knows each other. And where you can, <br>> without irony, propose that mumble might be a good way to discuss things <br>> transparently cause everyone who gives a fuck can be online and listen <br>> to people who love to hear themselves speak, or listen back to a <br>> delightful recording to do as much.<br>> <br>> Say PPI, why don't we ditch PP-IT and jump onboard the Grillo bandwagon <br>> on the Italian front? Just to set PP-IT a bar to jump over before we <br>> want to hear them talk again. Sounds too good to be adopted as stance by <br>> ppi, sadly.<br>> <br>> carlo von lynX schreef op 27.02.2013 13:01:<br>> > On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:56:52AM +0100, Dario wrote:<br>> >> It is impossible to keep a clean debate on Twitter. Too much short <br>> >> to do<br>> >> meaningful statements, too much lack of structure to follow properly <br>> >> a<br>> >> conversation. The opposite is true, mailing lists then to long <br>> >> debates,<br>> >> with too much long texts, etc. We need to find a middle ground.<br>> ><br>> > +1 ___ i'm in favour of a lqfb + mumble approach. pin down the <br>> > concrete<br>> > positions and facts in liquid, then have a virtual beer conversation<br>> > by teleconference to avoid the debate from getting misunderstood,<br>> > avoid paranoia and hatred to rise.<br>> ><br>> >> Also, I don't believe almost everyone on PP-DE uses Twitter and <br>> >> discuss<br>> >> everything there. I guess the most important (and delicate) issues <br>> >> are<br>> >> dealt in mailing lists, etherpads or even wiki's discussions.<br>> ><br>> > you're right. it's the most extrovert ones, be it in-crowd and/or <br>> > trolls,<br>> > that populate twitter. they're not representative of the party but <br>> > they<br>> > are seen the most both by media and by the board which is put unter<br>> > terrible pressure by every painful remark that goes about retweeted.<br>> ><br>> > it's an impossibility in theory of democracy for a representative, be <br>> > it<br>> > the board or a parlamentarian, to do it *right* for everyone. that's <br>> > why<br>> > we turned to liquid democracy in the first place, so that the party <br>> > can<br>> > develop coherent positions and the board has clear guidelines to <br>> > follow.<br>> ><br>> > the board should cut down on listening to single party members and <br>> > teach<br>> > them to express their will by liquid democracy. many trolls are <br>> > totally<br>> > unaware that their positions are far away from common ground - a <br>> > liquid<br>> > reality check tells them so, indicating them to stop making all that<br>> > noise, whereas good points make it through the procedure and get to <br>> > the<br>> > people who are currently executing the will.<br>> ><br>> > IMHO introducing https://lqfb.piratenpartei.de/lf/area/show/16.html <br>> > was<br>> > the best idea they had in a long time. they should make all <br>> > non-urgent<br>> > communication/decision-making pass this liquid democratic channel, <br>> > and<br>> > by teaching all pirates to participate in it, it also becomes more <br>> > and<br>> > more representative.<br>> ><br>> > ____________________________________________________<br>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> <br>> ____________________________________________________<br>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br> </div></body>
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