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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>People everywhere are waiting for a set of sound core ideas, turning around in circles going nowhere. The whole 15M / Indignado / Occupy / Yosoy132 / ...<br><br>And the way the Pirate Parties try to function... they start well,... and they soon die due to the inertia and lack of knowledge embedded statistically in the actual all-inclusive mass dynamics that has been demonstrated overwhelmingly over the last two years in these movements.<br><br><br>Antonio.<br><br>> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 07:22:00 +0100<br>> From: zzbbyy@gmail.com<br>> To: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirates and the 5 Star Movement<br>> <br>> In Poland we have Ruch Poparcia Palikota - it started with the same<br>> anti-establishment, slightly comedic, populist program, but it is very<br>> authoritarian inside. They had a huge success last elections but now<br>> apparently it is falling apart because of lack of core ideas. Palikot<br>> seems to lead the party where ever the polls show. Hard to predict<br>> how much it will retract. I also consider the PP-DE somehow populist.<br>> <br>> --<br>> Z.<br>> <br>> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:31 PM, carlo von lynX<br>> <lynX@pirate.my.buttharp.org> wrote:<br>> > On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 03:27:03PM +0100, Cal. wrote:<br>> >> Youngs are a strict minority, and they're probably voting the movement,<br>> >> not the grillo leader???they could move any moment to a pirate party, if<br>> >> they're not enough brainwashed.<br>> ><br>> > I'll elaborate on that...<br>> ><br>> > M5S has done an impressive job but as Pirates it is our duty<br>> > to point our finger to the severe issues in M5S' internal<br>> > democracy.. or rather its lack of.<br>> ><br>> > It is easy to have a beautiful party programme if others are<br>> > writing it for you and you remain in full power to decide<br>> > what choices the movement actually makes.<br>> ><br>> > Our criticism is well-known within the more active among the<br>> > M5S activists (not necessarily the ones that comment in blogs)<br>> > and shared by many of them, since they brought the topic up<br>> > before us. We just developed our own opinion, read the statutes<br>> > and came to the same conclusions.<br>> ><br>> > They are all just waiting for Grillo and his staff, the<br>> > Casaleggio company, to fulfil the promises of making everyone<br>> > take part in decisions and pass the movement into the hands of<br>> > true grassroots, electronic or liquid democracy.<br>> ><br>> > And many important figures know that we are fighting out the<br>> > extremely difficult next step: being a party without a board.<br>> > So they are already looking at us to share our experience,<br>> > the good and the bad, as "uno vale uno" - each person counts<br>> > as one - is their essential party motto and they care very<br>> > much for solutions to actually make this possible.<br>> ><br>> > There are four possible scenarios:<br>> ><br>> > - Grillo fulfills his promise and the movement starts<br>> > practicing what it preaches. If they're so good that they<br>> > even fulfil the core pirate dreams and get rid of their<br>> > populist stuff in the current programme, a merger is not out<br>> > of the question.. I say merger because our statutes are<br>> > more suitable to the job then theirs - and I especially<br>> > mean merger in the international perspective. I know how<br>> > unimportant we are on a local level.<br>> ><br>> > - Grillo does not and a relevant number of activists<br>> > leaves the movement to form its own party.<br>> ><br>> > - Grillo does not and a relevant number of activists<br>> > leave to join the Pirate Party because we are ahead with<br>> > our liquid directorate and maybe got it working by then.<br>> ><br>> > - Grillo does not and nothing happens. I presume in that case<br>> > population will soon figure out that it just elected a new<br>> > Berlusconi* and look for new alternatives. And that case<br>> > the race is open again, and Italy is currently *very* fluid.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > *) AFAIK in 1994 Berlusconi launched his FORZA ITALIA movement<br>> > in a similar way to Beppe Grillo, with a company running<br>> > the party and allowing no democratic interference at all.<br>> > The success was very similar. In 1994 it worked by television<br>> > that Berlusconi happened to run. This time it was the Internet.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > ____________________________________________________<br>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> --<br>> Zbigniew Lukasiak<br>> http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/<br>> http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/<br>> ____________________________________________________<br>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br> </div></body>
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