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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>After the infamous letter you posted lately, I must say I admire your ignorant guts :) .<br><br><br>Antonio.<br><br>> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:13:51 +0200<br>> From: kenneth@pirata.cat<br>> To: ningunotro@hotmail.com<br>> CC: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference Kazan 2013<br>> <br>> Antonio, points are points, insults are insults. You simply keep on<br>> insulting anyone not supporting your desires.<br>> <br>> <br>> Is insulting people an acceptable behaviour in this mailing list?<br>> <br>> This is a formal complaint about Antonio's behaviour.<br>> <br>> <br>> Regards,<br>> <br>> Kenneth<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:51:10 +0000, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro@hotmail.com><br>> wrote:<br>> > Your wishful thinking is pathetic.<br>> > <br>> > I do not need to be a delegate to Kazan for the Spanish Pirate Party to<br>> > have inalienable rights. I have these on my own as a human being, and as<br>> an<br>> > equal among pirates.<br>> > <br>> > By their own Rules of Procedure, provisional as they might be but deemed<br>> > temporarily enforceable unless a General Assembly ruled otherwise<br>> (which,<br>> > thanks to the terrible efficiency of General Assemblies has not happened<br>> > yet :) )... anonymous complaints are acceptable in matters regarding<br>> > infringement of PPI Statutes.<br>> > <br>> > What happened at the PPI GA in Prague and showed up in several CoA<br>> rulings<br>> > qualifies largely as such.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > So, no matter how cleverly you or anybody else thought he was<br>> scheming...<br>> > you are fucked assholes.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > And PPI and PPI Board are walking on eggs in this...<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Antonio.<br>> > <br>> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:02:23 +0200<br>> > Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International<br>> > Conference Kazan 2013<br>> > From: kenneth@pirata.cat<br>> > To: ningunotro@hotmail.com; pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > <br>> > All your logic goes linked to your personal wishes, not to rules or<br>> > statutes.<br>> > Current PPI statutes don't accept personal/annonymous complaints, so<br>> stop<br>> > crying and at least get recognized as the official delegate of your<br>> party<br>> > before complaining/crying/begging any longer.<br>> > So far, for what I know, your fellow party members don't want you to<br>> > represent them at all.<br>> > Go fix that or shout up :)<br>> > Be really logic, my friend. Don't just say you are .<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Salut! <br>> > Antonio Garcia <ningunotro@hotmail.com> escribió:<br>> > You have a weird sense of logic and ethic, my "friend".<br>> > <br>> > I do not need to propose anything. This is pending matter since it was<br>> > duly introduced as an anonymous complaint to the Court of Arbitration.<br>> > <br>> > And it gets absolute priority at the PPI General Assembly because the GA<br>> > is the supreme body of appeal when the CoA fails to deliver, and because<br>> > its outcome impacts on voting rights at the same General Assembly.<br>> > <br>> > Vote outcomes could be different if the vote of the Catalan Pirate Party<br>> > are deemed valid... so solving this issue comes first.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > And not doing it in such a way raises that many LOGICAL and ETHICAL<br>> > questions within PPI...<br>> > <br>> > ... that a FORK to the whole movement that provides a safe harbour for<br>> > logically and ethically consistent Pirates... is not to e ruled out if<br>> PPI<br>> > utterly fails in this.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Either way... you are done.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Antonio.<br>> > <br>> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:18:47 +0200<br>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International<br>> > Conference Kazan 2013<br>> > From: kenneth@pirata.cat<br>> > To: ningunotro@hotmail.com; pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > <br>> > To propose anything... You need to do it through your officiap<br>> > representatives.<br>> > The members of PPI are its parties, not its party members, and so far<br>> you<br>> > haven't been appointed as PP-ES delegate.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Salut! <br>> > Antonio Garcia <ningunotro@hotmail.com> escribió:<br>> > It's a bit late to try to get a quorum lowering participation costs for<br>> > remotely represented members to zero or almost zero.<br>> > <br>> > Holding the GA in Kazan has been a strategical move only to benefit<br>> > Gregory's position since the very beginning of it.<br>> > <br>> > Remember, PP of Russia is not even registered yet.<br>> > <br>> > Remember, there was such an interest in organizing this in Russia...<br>> that<br>> > there were two concurrent bids from there.<br>> > <br>> > Remember, the meetings where the outcome of the selection process was<br>> > crafted... were densely populated with participants.<br>> > <br>> > Remember, there is maybe still another meeting scheduled for Kiev...<br>> > theoretically stealth approved through "administrative silence"... from<br>> > Gregory?<br>> > <br>> > Remember, the russian bids were so consistent... the venue for Kazan is<br>> > not the originally offered venue anymore.<br>> > <br>> > Remember, the Kazan offer is headed towards being the most expensive in<br>> > the history of the pirate movement... only affordable for local russians<br>> > and the international pirate dandies with unlimited travel budgets.<br>> > <br>> > And certainly, it will be a place where Gregory will easily find straw<br>> men<br>> > to hold his many delegation representations. How many this time,<br>> Gregory?<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Surely, he aims for reelection, and he is bureaucratically working with<br>> > his elbows towards it to the best of his abilities... and 150.000 rubles<br>> of<br>> > personal subsidies.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > I am tired of all the bulshit stacked into the Pirate Movement in such a<br>> > short timeframe because of the lack of genuine leadership and vision in<br>> the<br>> > Pirate Swarm.<br>> > <br>> > It has become an IDIOCRACY some demagogues know far too well how to<br>> > navigate with populism and mob rule.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > If Kazan does not put an end to the endless horrors against logic and<br>> > ethic imposed onto the Pirate Movement in Prague (I witnessed that in<br>> utter<br>> > awe, do not know if it was more or less than in previous GAs)... then<br>> the<br>> > Pirate Movement is a walking Zombie.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > One single and simple test to begin with:<br>> > <br>> > 1) The bogus admission of the Catalan Pirate Party as a full member of<br>> the<br>> > PPI after a mere propaganda session, a blackmail to the Assembly, and<br>> mob<br>> > rule to impose a vote on a matter not being an ad-hoc competence of the<br>> > General Assembly, instrumentalizing a non-motion of the Australian<br>> Pirate<br>> > Party... and ignoring it did not even reach the required two-thirds<br>> > majority.<br>> > <br>> > The Statutes of PPI were blatantly ignored first, and consciously<br>> violated<br>> > in a sentence of the Court of Arbitration that will certainly be awarded<br>> > the Nobel Prize for utter stupidity as soon as it is created.<br>> > <br>> > I presented a very argumented and of unavoidable consequences complaint<br>> to<br>> > the Court of Arbitration... anonymously, as I could not get the backing<br>> of<br>> > a spineless Board of the Spanish Pirate Party,... carefully following<br>> the<br>> > published guidelines of the Rules of Procedure of the Court of<br>> > Arbitration,... that had decided -without a hint of disapproval<br>> anywhere-<br>> > that it would accept anonymous complaints of anybody in case of<br>> > infringement to the PPI Statutes.<br>> > <br>> > There was only one way to stop the complaint of achieving its goal...<br>> > render the CoA absolutely inoperative so that it could not resolve into<br>> a<br>> > result it could not tamper with.<br>> > <br>> > PP-CH threatened to SUE the PPI in court in such a clumsy way it offered<br>> > Gregory an dreamed excuse to impose the resignation of the Court of<br>> > Arbitration as a Salomonic (rather satanic) "solution" the Swiss could<br>> be<br>> > happy with or show muscle... and they folded.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > As the voting rights of a bogus member are being contested... either we<br>> > solve this adequately on-line BEFORE the assembly (and then maybe more<br>> > members seeing some hope is still a push to get the needed remote<br>> > participants on board)... or you will be fighting it out during the two<br>> > days, unable to tackle anything else (what a waste of money and time for<br>> > all those present in Kazan), and sign the demise of a pirate movement<br>> > already lacking credibility for any intelligent being.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Antonio García.<br>> > (by some kind of weird disfunctional wonder... official member of the<br>> > Board of the Spanish Pirate Party... while it lasts :( ). <br>> > <br>> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 03:02:40 +0200<br>> > From: jelena.the.one@gmail.com<br>> > To: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference<br>> > Kazan 2013<br>> > <br>> > I think you can get campaigns off the ground through posting ideas on<br>> this<br>> > list and involving the various national Parties if the ideas are good.<br>> > <br>> > that's what I am doing, that's community management, not campaign and<br>> > advertising :) thanx for having time to reply<br>> > I really believe conference fees should be none for remote participants,<br>> > since Kazan is that far and that expensive. Excuse e Gregory, but fees<br>> are<br>> > 3 do 4 times higher then in Prague.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Simon Frew<br>> <simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au><br>> > wrote:<br>> > <br>> >>Jelena said:<br>> > <br>> >>It was not a junket. it was good opportunity for networking. And there <br>> > is less trolling and hate speech when you meet someone face 2 face. <br>> > <br>> > That's<br>> > good if you can afford it, none of our members seem to have the spare <br>> > funds to travel to Russia for a two day meeting, and we can't afford to <br>> > fund them out of our limited budget.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> >>I think conference few should be much lower for remote participants. Or<br>> >>it should be no fee at all.<br>> > <br>> > Those<br>> > of us attending as remote delegates cannot register to attend. Leaving <br>> > us to wonder, will there even be remote delegates this year? Will it be <br>> > any better than previous years? <br>> > <br>> > I think I speak for many non-European <br>> > parties when I say we are looking for reassurance and evidence that we <br>> > wont get screwed over and left out yet again. If this years GA is as<br>> > farcical as the last two, the organisation will start to crumble.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> >>PPI has no budget, and I as a board member didn't use any <br>> > money so far. Even for runnign FB campaign resources (maybe) could be <br>> > given from PP DE. <br>> >>When I realized it I gave up making a project proposal<br>> > and going trough bureaucracy for little campaign <br>> >>(managing FB ads from <br>> > Serbia is cheaper than in other countries, ofc talking about price per <br>> > click / per 1000 views) <br>> > <br>> > I think you can get campaigns off the ground through posting ideas on<br>> this<br>> > list and involving the various national Parties if the ideas are good.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> >>PPI board members, as far as I know, will go to <br>> > Kazan from their own money too. PPI has no budget even to send board to <br>> > PPI conference. <br>> >>And I agree it is not cheap even when you are flying <br>> > from Europe, I calculated costs of flight ticket and hotel and it was <br>> > cca 1.000 eur (~ 1.200 AU dollars), from the Balkans. <br>> > <br>> > Surely<br>> > remote participation would be more important than ever, yet despite <br>> > repeated efforts through multiple channels we cannot get a response <br>> > reassuring people who can't attend in person that they will be able to <br>> > participate and that remote delegates will be taken seriously.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > What does the Board want the money for? How much does it want?<br>> > <br>> > We are reluctant <br>> > to give money <br>> > to an organisation that we feel effectively excluded from, with no idea <br>> > what it will do. The trust we have in the PPI, if you can't tell is <br>> > basically non-existant at the moment. The Co-Chair publicly attacking us<br>> > for not wanting to spend thousands of dollars to go to Russia doesn't <br>> > exactly give us confidence any money that goes to PPI will be used <br>> > wisely.<br>> > <br>> > Mab wrote:<br>> > <br>> >>The Swedish Pirate Party has since the start used a forum platform for <br>> > our general assemblies. Over the years we have developed <br>> >>quite a few <br>> > fetures to make it more suitable for online assemlies. They are entirely<br>> > text based and nowadays spans 6 weeks so that <br>> >>people can attend <br>> > regardless of when they have the time to be online. Any single round of <br>> > voting spans at least 24 hours to facilitate <br>> >>that everyone can vote.<br>> > <br>> > This sounds like the exact sort of thing that is needed for PPI.<br>> > <br>> > Regards<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Simon<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:18 AM, <mattias.bjarnemalm@piratpartiet.se><br>> > wrote:<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > The Swedish Pirate Party has since the start used a forum platform for<br>> our<br>> > general assemblies. Over the years we have developed quite a few fetures<br>> to<br>> > make it more suitable for online assemlies. They are entirely text based<br>> > and nowadays spans 6 weeks so that people can attend regardless of when<br>> > they have the time to be online. Any single round of voting spans at<br>> least<br>> > 24 hours to facilitate that everyone can vote.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > I am pretty sure a similar model would work for PPI, which, given its<br>> > delegate system, would have far less participants.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > If ppi where interested I am sure we could provide the technical<br>> know-how<br>> > of how to set up a web forum.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > All the best<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Mab<br>> > <br>> > PP-SE<br>> > <br>> > EU-branch<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > On 2013-04-02 10:41, Simon Frew wrote:<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > We just use cheap video streaming with an IRC channel where we verify<br>> > <br>> > who can vote and give them voice. Everyone with a computer monitors<br>> > <br>> > IRC so remote delegates get adequately represented. I think it costs<br>> > <br>> > about $50 for the streaming, but if its entirely online a Mumble<br>> > <br>> > server and a Pad would about do it. When we hired all of the gear it<br>> > <br>> > cost a total of $150 or so, but we have members who can provide a lot<br>> > <br>> > of infrastructure out of their own gear.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > It was suggested on #PPI IRC that one could be held on Google+, PP<br>> > <br>> > California meet using it (or did when I attended a meeting once) and<br>> > <br>> > it worked well. It means dealing with Google and subsequent privacy<br>> > <br>> > implications but it has video and is free.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > If there wont be any remote participation in the GA we might as well<br>> > <br>> > hold our own on Mumble. You guys could even have the honour of hosting<br>> > <br>> > the first one. Although PPAU has its own Mumble server too. Just start<br>> > <br>> > it later in your day time so I dont have to get up too early to<br>> > <br>> > attend. ;)<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Regards<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Simon<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Aza <rata_0071@hotmail.com> wrote:<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > 2013/4/1 Simon Frew <simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au><br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > We run remote participation for every congress in Australia and it costs<br>> > virtually nothing. See our official complaint letter for how to do it.<br>> The<br>> > idea it is expensive is false.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Hey Simon could the PPAU provide the infrastructure for a virtual GA?<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > At the PPAR we have a mumble server that could be used if you dont miss<br>> > video.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > If we cant participate in the same one we may just as well have a<br>> parallel<br>> > virtual GA<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > regards<br>> > <br>> > aza<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > President of the Intergalactic Pirate Party (IPP)<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > ____________________________________________________<br>> > <br>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > <br>> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > <br>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general [1]<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Links:<br>> > <br>> > ------<br>> > <br>> > [1] http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > ____________________________________________________<br>> > <br>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > <br>> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > <br>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > ____________________________________________________<br>> > <br>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > <br>> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > <br>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > ____________________________________________________<br>> > <br>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > <br>> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > <br>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > --<br> </div></body>
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