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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>Formal?<br><br>You have plenipotenciary powers to decide this on your own, as in personally involved, on behalf of the whole of your party?<br><br><br>A party which, it must be said, has not published a single comma on this list since you certainly shamed them so deeply...<br><br><br>You must be out of your mind.<br><br><br>Antonio.<br><br>> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:20:36 +0200<br>> From: kenneth@pirata.cat<br>> To: ningunotro@hotmail.com<br>> CC: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference Kazan 2013<br>> <br>> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 13:17:19 +0000, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro@hotmail.com><br>> wrote:<br>> > After the infamous letter you posted lately, I must say I admire your<br>> > ignorant guts :) .<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Antonio.<br>> > <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> This is ANOTHER formal complaint about Antonio's behaviour.<br>> <br>> <br>> >> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:13:51 +0200<br>> >> From: kenneth@pirata.cat<br>> >> To: ningunotro@hotmail.com<br>> >> CC: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> >> Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International<br>> >> Conference Kazan 2013<br>> >> <br>> >> Antonio, points are points, insults are insults. You simply keep on<br>> >> insulting anyone not supporting your desires.<br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> Is insulting people an acceptable behaviour in this mailing list?<br>> >> <br>> >> This is a formal complaint about Antonio's behaviour.<br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> Regards,<br>> >> <br>> >> Kenneth<br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:51:10 +0000, Antonio Garcia<br>> >> <ningunotro@hotmail.com><br>> >> wrote:<br>> >> > Your wishful thinking is pathetic.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > I do not need to be a delegate to Kazan for the Spanish Pirate Party<br>> to<br>> >> > have inalienable rights. I have these on my own as a human being, and<br>> >> > as<br>> >> an<br>> >> > equal among pirates.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > By their own Rules of Procedure, provisional as they might be but<br>> >> > deemed<br>> >> > temporarily enforceable unless a General Assembly ruled otherwise<br>> >> (which,<br>> >> > thanks to the terrible efficiency of General Assemblies has not<br>> >> > happened<br>> >> > yet :) )... anonymous complaints are acceptable in matters regarding<br>> >> > infringement of PPI Statutes.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > What happened at the PPI GA in Prague and showed up in several CoA<br>> >> rulings<br>> >> > qualifies largely as such.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > So, no matter how cleverly you or anybody else thought he was<br>> >> scheming...<br>> >> > you are fucked assholes.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > And PPI and PPI Board are walking on eggs in this...<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Antonio.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:02:23 +0200<br>> >> > Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International<br>> >> > Conference Kazan 2013<br>> >> > From: kenneth@pirata.cat<br>> >> > To: ningunotro@hotmail.com;<br>> >> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> >> > <br>> >> > All your logic goes linked to your personal wishes, not to rules or<br>> >> > statutes.<br>> >> > Current PPI statutes don't accept personal/annonymous complaints, so<br>> >> stop<br>> >> > crying and at least get recognized as the official delegate of your<br>> >> party<br>> >> > before complaining/crying/begging any longer.<br>> >> > So far, for what I know, your fellow party members don't want you to<br>> >> > represent them at all.<br>> >> > Go fix that or shout up :)<br>> >> > Be really logic, my friend. Don't just say you are .<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Salut! <br>> >> > Antonio Garcia <ningunotro@hotmail.com> escribió:<br>> >> > You have a weird sense of logic and ethic, my "friend".<br>> >> > <br>> >> > I do not need to propose anything. This is pending matter since it<br>> was<br>> >> > duly introduced as an anonymous complaint to the Court of<br>> Arbitration.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > And it gets absolute priority at the PPI General Assembly because the<br>> >> > GA<br>> >> > is the supreme body of appeal when the CoA fails to deliver, and<br>> >> > because<br>> >> > its outcome impacts on voting rights at the same General Assembly.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Vote outcomes could be different if the vote of the Catalan Pirate<br>> >> > Party<br>> >> > are deemed valid... so solving this issue comes first.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > And not doing it in such a way raises that many LOGICAL and ETHICAL<br>> >> > questions within PPI...<br>> >> > <br>> >> > ... that a FORK to the whole movement that provides a safe harbour<br>> for<br>> >> > logically and ethically consistent Pirates... is not to e ruled out<br>> if<br>> >> PPI<br>> >> > utterly fails in this.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Either way... you are done.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Antonio.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:18:47 +0200<br>> >> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International<br>> >> > Conference Kazan 2013<br>> >> > From: kenneth@pirata.cat<br>> >> > To: ningunotro@hotmail.com;<br>> >> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> >> > <br>> >> > To propose anything... You need to do it through your officiap<br>> >> > representatives.<br>> >> > The members of PPI are its parties, not its party members, and so far<br>> >> you<br>> >> > haven't been appointed as PP-ES delegate.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Salut! <br>> >> > Antonio Garcia <ningunotro@hotmail.com> escribió:<br>> >> > It's a bit late to try to get a quorum lowering participation costs<br>> for<br>> >> > remotely represented members to zero or almost zero.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Holding the GA in Kazan has been a strategical move only to benefit<br>> >> > Gregory's position since the very beginning of it.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Remember, PP of Russia is not even registered yet.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Remember, there was such an interest in organizing this in Russia...<br>> >> that<br>> >> > there were two concurrent bids from there.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Remember, the meetings where the outcome of the selection process was<br>> >> > crafted... were densely populated with participants.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Remember, there is maybe still another meeting scheduled for Kiev...<br>> >> > theoretically stealth approved through "administrative silence"...<br>> from<br>> >> > Gregory?<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Remember, the russian bids were so consistent... the venue for Kazan<br>> is<br>> >> > not the originally offered venue anymore.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Remember, the Kazan offer is headed towards being the most expensive<br>> in<br>> >> > the history of the pirate movement... only affordable for local<br>> >> > russians<br>> >> > and the international pirate dandies with unlimited travel budgets.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > And certainly, it will be a place where Gregory will easily find<br>> straw<br>> >> men<br>> >> > to hold his many delegation representations. How many this time,<br>> >> Gregory?<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Surely, he aims for reelection, and he is bureaucratically working<br>> with<br>> >> > his elbows towards it to the best of his abilities... and 150.000<br>> >> > rubles<br>> >> of<br>> >> > personal subsidies.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > I am tired of all the bulshit stacked into the Pirate Movement in<br>> such<br>> >> > a<br>> >> > short timeframe because of the lack of genuine leadership and vision<br>> in<br>> >> the<br>> >> > Pirate Swarm.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > It has become an IDIOCRACY some demagogues know far too well how to<br>> >> > navigate with populism and mob rule.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > If Kazan does not put an end to the endless horrors against logic and<br>> >> > ethic imposed onto the Pirate Movement in Prague (I witnessed that in<br>> >> utter<br>> >> > awe, do not know if it was more or less than in previous GAs)... then<br>> >> the<br>> >> > Pirate Movement is a walking Zombie.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > One single and simple test to begin with:<br>> >> > <br>> >> > 1) The bogus admission of the Catalan Pirate Party as a full member<br>> of<br>> >> the<br>> >> > PPI after a mere propaganda session, a blackmail to the Assembly, and<br>> >> mob<br>> >> > rule to impose a vote on a matter not being an ad-hoc competence of<br>> the<br>> >> > General Assembly, instrumentalizing a non-motion of the Australian<br>> >> Pirate<br>> >> > Party... and ignoring it did not even reach the required two-thirds<br>> >> > majority.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > The Statutes of PPI were blatantly ignored first, and consciously<br>> >> violated<br>> >> > in a sentence of the Court of Arbitration that will certainly be<br>> >> > awarded<br>> >> > the Nobel Prize for utter stupidity as soon as it is created.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > I presented a very argumented and of unavoidable consequences<br>> complaint<br>> >> to<br>> >> > the Court of Arbitration... anonymously, as I could not get the<br>> backing<br>> >> of<br>> >> > a spineless Board of the Spanish Pirate Party,... carefully following<br>> >> the<br>> >> > published guidelines of the Rules of Procedure of the Court of<br>> >> > Arbitration,... that had decided -without a hint of disapproval<br>> >> anywhere-<br>> >> > that it would accept anonymous complaints of anybody in case of<br>> >> > infringement to the PPI Statutes.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > There was only one way to stop the complaint of achieving its goal...<br>> >> > render the CoA absolutely inoperative so that it could not resolve<br>> into<br>> >> a<br>> >> > result it could not tamper with.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > PP-CH threatened to SUE the PPI in court in such a clumsy way it<br>> >> > offered<br>> >> > Gregory an dreamed excuse to impose the resignation of the Court of<br>> >> > Arbitration as a Salomonic (rather satanic) "solution" the Swiss<br>> could<br>> >> be<br>> >> > happy with or show muscle... and they folded.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > As the voting rights of a bogus member are being contested... either<br>> we<br>> >> > solve this adequately on-line BEFORE the assembly (and then maybe<br>> more<br>> >> > members seeing some hope is still a push to get the needed remote<br>> >> > participants on board)... or you will be fighting it out during the<br>> two<br>> >> > days, unable to tackle anything else (what a waste of money and time<br>> >> > for<br>> >> > all those present in Kazan), and sign the demise of a pirate movement<br>> >> > already lacking credibility for any intelligent being.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Antonio García.<br>> >> > (by some kind of weird disfunctional wonder... official member of the<br>> >> > Board of the Spanish Pirate Party... while it lasts :( ). <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 03:02:40 +0200<br>> >> > From: jelena.the.one@gmail.com<br>> >> > To: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> >> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference<br>> >> > Kazan 2013<br>> >> > <br>> >> > I think you can get campaigns off the ground through posting ideas on<br>> >> this<br>> >> > list and involving the various national Parties if the ideas are<br>> good.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > that's what I am doing, that's community management, not campaign and<br>> >> > advertising :) thanx for having time to reply<br>> >> > I really believe conference fees should be none for remote<br>> >> > participants,<br>> >> > since Kazan is that far and that expensive. Excuse e Gregory, but<br>> fees<br>> >> are<br>> >> > 3 do 4 times higher then in Prague.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Simon Frew<br>> >> <simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au><br>> >> > wrote:<br>> >> > <br>> >> >>Jelena said:<br>> >> > <br>> >> >>It was not a junket. it was good opportunity for networking. And<br>> there <br>> >> > is less trolling and hate speech when you meet someone face 2 face. <br>> >> > <br>> >> > That's<br>> >> > good if you can afford it, none of our members seem to have the<br>> spare <br>> >> > funds to travel to Russia for a two day meeting, and we can't afford<br>> >> > to<br>> >> > fund them out of our limited budget.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> >>I think conference few should be much lower for remote participants.<br>> Or<br>> >> >>it should be no fee at all.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Those<br>> >> > of us attending as remote delegates cannot register to attend.<br>> >> > Leaving<br>> >> > us to wonder, will there even be remote delegates this year? Will it<br>> >> > be<br>> >> > any better than previous years? <br>> >> > <br>> >> > I think I speak for many non-European <br>> >> > parties when I say we are looking for reassurance and evidence that<br>> we <br>> >> > wont get screwed over and left out yet again. If this years GA is as<br>> >> > farcical as the last two, the organisation will start to crumble.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> >>PPI has no budget, and I as a board member didn't use any <br>> >> > money so far. Even for runnign FB campaign resources (maybe) could be<br>> <br>> >> > given from PP DE. <br>> >> >>When I realized it I gave up making a project proposal<br>> >> > and going trough bureaucracy for little campaign <br>> >> >>(managing FB ads from <br>> >> > Serbia is cheaper than in other countries, ofc talking about price<br>> per <br>> >> > click / per 1000 views) <br>> >> > <br>> >> > I think you can get campaigns off the ground through posting ideas on<br>> >> this<br>> >> > list and involving the various national Parties if the ideas are<br>> good.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> >>PPI board members, as far as I know, will go to <br>> >> > Kazan from their own money too. PPI has no budget even to send board<br>> >> > to<br>> >> > PPI conference. <br>> >> >>And I agree it is not cheap even when you are flying <br>> >> > from Europe, I calculated costs of flight ticket and hotel and it was<br>> <br>> >> > cca 1.000 eur (~ 1.200 AU dollars), from the Balkans. <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Surely<br>> >> > remote participation would be more important than ever, yet despite <br>> >> > repeated efforts through multiple channels we cannot get a response <br>> >> > reassuring people who can't attend in person that they will be able<br>> to <br>> >> > participate and that remote delegates will be taken seriously.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > What does the Board want the money for? How much does it want?<br>> >> > <br>> >> > We are reluctant <br>> >> > to give money <br>> >> > to an organisation that we feel effectively excluded from, with no<br>> >> > idea<br>> >> > what it will do. The trust we have in the PPI, if you can't tell is <br>> >> > basically non-existant at the moment. The Co-Chair publicly attacking<br>> >> > us<br>> >> > for not wanting to spend thousands of dollars to go to Russia<br>> doesn't <br>> >> > exactly give us confidence any money that goes to PPI will be used <br>> >> > wisely.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Mab wrote:<br>> >> > <br>> >> >>The Swedish Pirate Party has since the start used a forum platform<br>> for <br>> >> > our general assemblies. Over the years we have developed <br>> >> >>quite a few <br>> >> > fetures to make it more suitable for online assemlies. They are<br>> >> > entirely<br>> >> > text based and nowadays spans 6 weeks so that <br>> >> >>people can attend <br>> >> > regardless of when they have the time to be online. Any single round<br>> >> > of<br>> >> > voting spans at least 24 hours to facilitate <br>> >> >>that everyone can vote.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > This sounds like the exact sort of thing that is needed for PPI.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Regards<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Simon<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:18 AM, <mattias.bjarnemalm@piratpartiet.se><br>> >> > wrote:<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > The Swedish Pirate Party has since the start used a forum platform<br>> for<br>> >> our<br>> >> > general assemblies. Over the years we have developed quite a few<br>> >> > fetures<br>> >> to<br>> >> > make it more suitable for online assemlies. They are entirely text<br>> >> > based<br>> >> > and nowadays spans 6 weeks so that people can attend regardless of<br>> when<br>> >> > they have the time to be online. Any single round of voting spans at<br>> >> least<br>> >> > 24 hours to facilitate that everyone can vote.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > I am pretty sure a similar model would work for PPI, which, given its<br>> >> > delegate system, would have far less participants.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > If ppi where interested I am sure we could provide the technical<br>> >> know-how<br>> >> > of how to set up a web forum.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > All the best<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Mab<br>> >> > <br>> >> > PP-SE<br>> >> > <br>> >> > EU-branch<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > On 2013-04-02 10:41, Simon Frew wrote:<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > We just use cheap video streaming with an IRC channel where we verify<br>> >> > <br>> >> > who can vote and give them voice. Everyone with a computer monitors<br>> >> > <br>> >> > IRC so remote delegates get adequately represented. I think it costs<br>> >> > <br>> >> > about $50 for the streaming, but if its entirely online a Mumble<br>> >> > <br>> >> > server and a Pad would about do it. When we hired all of the gear it<br>> >> > <br>> >> > cost a total of $150 or so, but we have members who can provide a lot<br>> >> > <br>> >> > of infrastructure out of their own gear.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > It was suggested on #PPI IRC that one could be held on Google+, PP<br>> >> > <br>> >> > California meet using it (or did when I attended a meeting once) and<br>> >> > <br>> >> > it worked well. It means dealing with Google and subsequent privacy<br>> >> > <br>> >> > implications but it has video and is free.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > If there wont be any remote participation in the GA we might as well<br>> >> > <br>> >> > hold our own on Mumble. You guys could even have the honour of<br>> hosting<br>> >> > <br>> >> > the first one. Although PPAU has its own Mumble server too. Just<br>> start<br>> >> > <br>> >> > it later in your day time so I dont have to get up too early to<br>> >> > <br>> >> > attend. ;)<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Regards<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Simon<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Aza <rata_0071@hotmail.com> wrote:<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > 2013/4/1 Simon Frew <simon.frew@pirateparty.org.au><br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > We run remote participation for every congress in Australia and it<br>> >> > costs<br>> >> > virtually nothing. See our official complaint letter for how to do<br>> it.<br>> >> The<br>> >> > idea it is expensive is false.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Hey Simon could the PPAU provide the infrastructure for a virtual GA?<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > At the PPAR we have a mumble server that could be used if you dont<br>> miss<br>> >> > video.<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > If we cant participate in the same one we may just as well have a<br>> >> parallel<br>> >> > virtual GA<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > regards<br>> >> > <br>> >> > aza<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > President of the Intergalactic Pirate Party (IPP)<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > ____________________________________________________<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> >> > <br>> >> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> >> > <br>> >> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> >> > [1]<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > Links:<br>> >> > <br>> >> > ------<br>> >> > <br>> >> > [1]<br>> >> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > ____________________________________________________<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> >> > <br>> >> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> >> > <br>> >> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > ____________________________________________________<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> >> > <br>> >> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> >> > <br>> >> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > ____________________________________________________<br>> >> > <br>> >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> >> > <br>> >> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> >> > <br>> >> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > <br>> >> > --<br> </div></body>
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