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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>I checked, the list published his reply too :( . Should not have been if he had cancelled subscription.<br><br>Of course, he can have unsubscribed as he told, and then sign on again just to answer.<br><br>Or he may have lied.<br><br><br>Antonio.<br><br><div>> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 21:29:05 +0200<br>> From: pirate@valio.ch<br>> To: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net; ningunotro@hotmail.com<br>> CC: kenneth@pirata.cat; pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some thoughts for the mailing list<br>> <br>> Not necessarily.<br>> In your previous mail you included him in the CC; he's still there in <br>> my mail here as well.<br>> <br>> -pat<br>> <br>> Quoting Antonio Garcia <ningunotro@hotmail.com>:<br>> <br>> > He must have signed on again just to tell you all...<br>> ><br>> > Must be pathologic, lol.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Antonio.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 19:59:55 +0200<br>> > Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some <br>> > thoughts for the mailing list<br>> > From: kenneth@pirata.cat<br>> > To: ningunotro@hotmail.com; pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> ><br>> > Can somebody please ban this mentall ill liar?????<br>> ><br>> > Salut!<br>> > Kenneth<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > -------- Missatge original --------<br>> > De: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro@hotmail.com><br>> > Data: 15/06/2013 19:14 (GMT+01:00)<br>> > A: Kenneth Peiruza <kenneth@pirata.cat>,Pirate Parties International <br>> > -- General Talk <pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net><br>> > Assumpte: RE: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some <br>> > thoughts for the mailing list<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Mr. Peiruza has a very developed habit of discrediting whatever does <br>> > not conform to his own personal beliefs.<br>> ><br>> > Of course, this is bullshit! Only when he does it himself he does <br>> > seem to have a blind eye and be very tolerating. One not so nice and <br>> > superb example is this one: http://iPir.at/catalunya . Certainly <br>> > worth the Nobel Price of insult and slander.<br>> ><br>> > He must also be the only person to have blackmailed a PPI GA, in <br>> > Prague, where he threatened to derail it at a moment when it could <br>> > have had a terrible impact on the press coverage of the German <br>> > Pirate Party just before two crucial regional elections.<br>> ><br>> > Sadly, the whole pirate movement is in such a bad shape that instead <br>> > of not achieving his goals, he got rewarded by the kids in the <br>> > movement and certain bastard interests... and everything legal and <br>> > illegal was done to keep the issue off the agenda in Kazan. Well, <br>> > you all know hat you have to live with, and whether it is bearable.<br>> ><br>> > In the document http://iPir.at/catalunya Mr. Peiruza tries to paint <br>> > the Spanish Pirate Party black because it did and does not conform <br>> > to his present beliefs...<br>> ><br>> > ... but what he does not tell is that he became a member of the <br>> > Spanish Pirate Party knowing what it stood for and who its members <br>> > were, and that he broke away of it keeping the brand to follow his <br>> > own agenda with a few other fellow Catalans.<br>> ><br>> > The Spanish Pirate party started as a clean copy of the Swedish one, <br>> > with a focus on issues that were dealt with at the national and <br>> > international level. No provisions for participation in regional nor <br>> > local elections existed thus in its Statutes, and Mr. Peiruza and <br>> > other Catalans were bound to know this when they joined the party <br>> > voluntarily.<br>> ><br>> > One particularity of the Statutes of the Spanish Pirate Party was <br>> > that, the people founding the party had probably had some bad <br>> > experiences in the past, and had been a bit paranoid as to the <br>> > protection of the basic identity and goals of the party... such that <br>> > they protected that part of the Statutes stipulating that they could <br>> > only be changed with a majority vote expressed by at least 90% of <br>> > the membership of the party.<br>> ><br>> > I was not there, I can say nothing about the assertion by Mr. <br>> > Peiruza that many of the original founders and initial membership of <br>> > the Spanish Pirate Party were rightwingers... he himself seems to be <br>> > quite lefty and a good friend of Catalan separatists... so I can <br>> > imagine why he might like to exagerate certain tendencies to suit <br>> > his needs. In any case... I can imagine that he would never have <br>> > found enough backing to have the Statutes changed so as to cater for <br>> > his and others particular interests regarding the region of Catalunya.<br>> ><br>> > Fact is thus... that a Spanish Pirate Party existed covering the <br>> > whole of Spain, and catering for issues that could only be addressed <br>> > at the national and european level. Its Statutes did not provide <br>> > ways to participate in regional and local elections.<br>> ><br>> > Mr. Peiruza and his Catalan comrades would certainly have had a very <br>> > hard time trying to convince the membership scattered over all Spain <br>> > to vote a Statutes change to allow for participation in regional and <br>> > local elections. To be honest, an added difficulty was the less than <br>> > optimal member register combined by the lack of membership fees, <br>> > that difficulted the writeoff of people that once adhered but showed <br>> > no reactions to efforts to contact them. As long as they were not <br>> > written off... they were part of the census of which 90% had to vote <br>> > to make important Statutes changes possible. When the Catalans set <br>> > their aim at participating in the Catalan regional elections... no <br>> > procedure whatsoever respectful of the rights of members could be <br>> > found... expedient enough to change the Statutes in time so the <br>> > Spanish Pirate Party could have participated in the Catalan regional <br>> > elections.<br>> ><br>> > THAT is the one and only REAL reason why... they decided to skip all <br>> > difficulties and abandon everyone that did not cater for their <br>> > regional priorities, and forgetting the master lines of the Pirate <br>> > Movement, created a split only to be able to be Catalans before <br>> > being Pirates, while conveniently continuing to squat the Pirate <br>> > brand.<br>> ><br>> > While he only dares say it when it suits him, he is right when he <br>> > says that this Pirate Movement isn't a Swarm anymore. It is indeed <br>> > what he says, and he has forgotten to mention the few ultrapragmatic <br>> > Überbureaucrats that cater for their own personal agenda.<br>> ><br>> > The initial guidelines provided by Rick have shown to be way <br>> > insufficient to maintain cohesion within the movement. And while he <br>> > may have provided sufficient leadership in Sweden, elsewhere the <br>> > Pirate Parties have fallen prey to populist interpretations limited <br>> > by acute knowledge of facts by the majority of their unskilled and <br>> > little realityaware members.<br>> ><br>> > For a swarm to grow and become stronger... it has to attract more <br>> > and more intelligent members... but it has fallen prey to simplism <br>> > and simplifications along the road, specially since the 15M / <br>> > Indignado / Occupy Movement has popularized the populist and near <br>> > communist, dogmatic and mechanical vision of equality among men... <br>> > for everyone to be mechanically equal, considering that we do not <br>> > know yet how to make everyone as smart as the smartest, we shall <br>> > apply an intellectual lobotomy to make everyone as dumb as the <br>> > dumbest. The majority of not so smart members decides, and it <br>> > decides to ignore anything it does not understand without effort.<br>> ><br>> > As a result, all but the most aware of Pirate Parties are evolving <br>> > unstoppably towards IDIOCRACIES.<br>> ><br>> > And whenever their delegates come together, we get clownesque shows <br>> > like the one seen in Prague and in Kazan/Brussels (I was not around <br>> > to rate the previous gatherings).<br>> ><br>> > Believe what you want, call me what you like, shove another chimney <br>> > pipe up my ass ;) ...<br>> ><br>> > ... only the most imperative of real actions can change that trend, <br>> > and I do not see it happening from within the Movement.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > And rules for mailing lists etc. won't change a thing... you can <br>> > not impose rules, whatever rules, upon those that choose not to <br>> > understand why they are necessary...<br>> ><br>> > ... you will only achieve to burn out whatever people have finally <br>> > to deal with their enforcement.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > The only way is to keep out people that do not understand enough. If <br>> > not from the society we want to build... at least from the combat <br>> > units we try to build it with.<br>> ><br>> > Nothing can be organised democratically to fight the situation in <br>> > our present society... if it is the majority of ignorants that has <br>> > to decide what has to be done.<br>> ><br>> > We are political parties trying to organize a kindergarten where <br>> > everybody can be happy if that happens to be the best possible thing <br>> > to be got (hopefully not)... not a kindergarten yet.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > I guess somebody, somewhere, will have to start getting really <br>> > serious about the Pirate stuff...<br>> ><br>> > ... or registering the brand while it has no content worth <br>> > preserving will be a futile game.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Antonio.<br>> ><br>> > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:58:57 +0200<br>> > From: kenneth@pirata.cat<br>> > To: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some <br>> > thoughts for the mailing list<br>> ><br>> > This is bullshit, moreover when very few people keep on harassing <br>> > and insulting anyone not agreeing with them here.<br>> > This isn't a swarm, it's a melting pot of activists from parties at <br>> > a diferent stage of maturity + a bunch of fools/morons.<br>> > So, if this list can't be that swarm, let's start a new and fresh <br>> > one (as you suggested in your swarmwise).<br>> > If you want to relly me, add me to cc, as I have just <br>> > unsubscribed.It's sad, I've been in this mailing list since 2009, <br>> > but right now it's just a piece of shit. This "swarm" is dead.<br>> > Regards,<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Kenneth<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > -------- Missatge original --------<br>> > De: "Rick Falkvinge (Piratpartiet)" <rick.falkvinge@piratpartiet.se><br>> > Data: 15/06/2013 14:23 (GMT+01:00)<br>> > A: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk <br>> > <pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net><br>> > Assumpte: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some thoughts <br>> > for the mailing list<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>> > Hash: SHA1<br>> ><br>> > Dear colleagues,<br>> ><br>> > I read the notice of a formal complaint about this channel. It was not<br>> > set up to be a moderated channel, nor is it one. Therefore, a formal<br>> > complaint is kind of an oxymoron as there are no formal rules to base<br>> > a complaint on.<br>> ><br>> > After all, rules that cannot reasonably be enforced are not rules you<br>> > want to have. You cannot keep somebody from posting to an open list,<br>> > and openness is a virtue. The alternative would be moderating posts<br>> > and/or participants, and that's not who we are; that's not the swarm<br>> > way of collaborating.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Instead, I'd like to remind everybody about two important principles:<br>> ><br>> > - - Attention is reward.<br>> > - - If you see something you don't like, contribute with something<br>> > you do like.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > ATTENTION IS REWARD: If you give somebody attention for a behavior,<br>> > you will reinforce that behavior, whether the behavior is something<br>> > you want to see more or less of. This means that giving attention to<br>> > things you dislike is inherently self-defeating, as they will be<br>> > nurtured by your attention.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > IF YOU SEE SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE, CONTRIBUTE WITH SOMETHING YOU DO<br>> > LIKE: This is closely related to the Law of Two Feet. We're a<br>> > meritocracy where we're dependent on many people trying many different<br>> > things. Leadership with us is not achieved by vote or appointment, but<br>> > by taking an initiative and letting others follow that initiative of<br>> > their own free will. Disliking an initiative is fine, but criticizing<br>> > the initiative from that emotion misses the point - being pioneers, we<br>> > must necessarily try many paths, and many of them will be dead ends,<br>> > but we don't know that before trying them. The more paths we try, the<br>> > more ways of success we'll find. Therefore, the proper response to<br>> > seeing somebody walk down a path you don't believe in is to walk down<br>> > your own path that you believe more in.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > (As a final plug, these and many more principles are covered more<br>> > in-depth in my book Swarmwise, which covers my leadership experiences<br>> > taking the PPSE from nothing into the European Parliament. Five<br>> > chapters have been published so far, and you can read them here:<br>> ><br>> > http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/14/swarmwise-the-tactical-manual-to-changing-the-world-chapter-one/<br>> ><br>> > )<br>> ><br>> > Cheers,<br>> > Rick<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > PS: On the rare occasion, I have seen disrespect against fellow<br>> > activists on this mailing list, and I never think that's ok. Whether<br>> > to call it out or not is a judgment call on a case-by-case basis, but<br>> > that will not be done by the mailing list maintainers in that role.<br>> > See the two names as technical administrators of the mailing list<br>> > server, and not enforcers of any kind of social rules.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > - --<br>> > Rick Falkvinge<br>> > Founder of the first Pirate Party<br>> > Piratpartiet SE<br>> ><br>> > @Falkvinge<br>> > +46708303600<br>> ><br>> > Blog, bio and press photos at http://falkvinge.net/photos-bio/<br>> ><br>> > My mails are always digitally signed. If you get a mail that isn't, it<br>> > was not sent by me.<br>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)<br>> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/<br>> ><br>> > iEYEARECAAYFAlG8XLUACgkQ7pnTrWI4jx2N6gCgir2luXwVjBJmicL/9LbwM5fo<br>> > yB0AoIAsEPMHXT7oizc1rJ7O2zSA9No0<br>> > =+ojY<br>> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>> > ____________________________________________________<br>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> ><br>> > ____________________________________________________<br>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> <br>> <br>> <br></div> </div></body>
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