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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Anouk,<br>
<br>
I always found your points of view very interesting, especially in
our conversations at the European Pirates congress in Barcelona
last year. I found you a very democratic pirate. Though I don't
always agree with you on your perspectives respecting how to
accomplish things, I usually get where you want to go.<br>
<br>
I like too Sun Tzu's <i>'The Art of War'</i> and recomended to
different people several times... but I don't think it does apply
here in this case.<br>
<br>
I don't think it's a matter of shyness, or being timid, or not
knowing our own strenghts. I think it's a matter of wasting time
and energy with things that most of the time are not helping at
all to focus on our goal which is <u>how to get closer to people</u>
(outside the pirate movement) and try to cover their needs with
our ideology.<br>
<br>
People are not getting our message, our vision, mainly because
these internal fights distract us from listen to them and act
accordingly. We pirates need some fresh air to work united in a
proactive way.<br>
<br>
My presence here has became (sadly) just to support our fellow
pirates from Catalonia and our project of Confederation in Spain
from time to time. To make people understand Catalans are not
alone and we are not their puppets - as many times it's being
suggested - but strong co-workers, even friends in a certain way.
<br>
<br>
In Galicia we have decided not so long time ago that we are going
to share our work through Pirate Times and specific projects
(regarding PPI) while this agressive environment is not surpassed.
And I'd like to remark it is not always a few spanish individuals
who foul the environment. It is very difficult to work fast and
efficient like this, especially for small groups as us.<br>
<br>
I agree completely with Muriel's suggestions. Leave this ML like
it is and create a new one with rules and nettiquete previously
settled to prevent this situation to ever happen again. <br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Isabel Fernandez
GPG EA63DF8E
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.piratasdegalicia.org">www.piratasdegalicia.org</a></pre>
El 16/06/13 11:06, Anouk escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMUTSpWpp3Qt6tRtwswBuAP5pCbCv5P66zq2u1AmB7o2my1CQQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">in-line answered.<br>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 16 June 2013 00:47, Muriel
Rovira Esteva <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:muriel@pirata.cat"
target="_blank">muriel@pirata.cat</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Dear Anouk,<br>
<br>
This list is for pirates. It's not the outer world nor
the corridors of a Parliament. It should be a friendly
environment. This is our discussion space, where we
should be welcoming, motivating and encouraging newly
arrived pirates. Shy and intimidated people may have
very good ideas or insights that the whole movement can
benefit from.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hence I asked, but a little footnote, even being very
shy or timid, if one never speaks out, you (in general)
got a (common) personality problem to deal with.<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
We do not need every single pirate helping us to change
society or working for our cause to be at the front line
shouting and speaking out loud, fighting within a harsh
environment of old school politicians. Everyone has its
place. Successful teamwork means that every individual
should be fulfilling different and complementary tasks.
<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Precisely, 'we' are still trying to arrive at this
working model/principle. So assuming that 'we' are
already at this state is a fallacy (which is actually
the core problem! Hence the returning kindergarten
remark).<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
If we select only one kind of personality traits, and we
only encourage a kind of person to get in our team (call
it enduring or whatever), we're very likely to loose a
great deal of our potential and the insights that you
get when you talk to people that are very different from
you... I don't know, perhaps they would be able to tell,
for instance, why is the movement not as successful
sometimes as you would like it to be. <br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You gave yourself the answer just before :) TEAMWORK,
we all have different talents learn to use them instead
of trying to be this omnipotent 'superpirate'. And YES
we do need people at the political front that can endure
foul attacks !!!<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Additionally, I do not see as our duty (nor understand
this obsession) with toughening up people who may
temptatively come here to see what the pirates are
about, and which may be willing to volunteer part of
their time to the project, if the thing is appealing
enough to them. Last time I checked this wasn't the
mailing list of a military camp.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu">http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu</a><br>
<b>It is said that if you <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Knowledge"
title="Knowledge">know</a> your <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Enemies"
title="Enemies">enemies</a> and know yourself, you
will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do
not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will
win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies
nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single
battle.<br>
<br>
</b></div>
<div>Life itself is a war until we abandon the notion of
peace and war ! Hide and duck is a very bad advise from
the fifties to protect yourself from a nuclear attack.
If an attack is imminent, don't go in denial because you
will suffer the consequences.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Is the Pirate Party not the result of a foul attack
at pirate bay ? Are pirates at peace with this ? I do
not think so.<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I also think that we're plural (good thing!), and
understand that some very valuable people with good
ideas will not know how to express their thoughts in a
different way (call it soft or respectful). And because
I don't want to miss their insights either, that is why
I think an unmoderated list should be mantained as well.</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why does anyone shy would like to expose him/herself
to an international scene ? This is a<i> contradictio in
terminis</i>.<br>
</div>
<div>These pirates can function perfectly at a local
level.<br>
<br>
I am agreeing that a 'safe' mail list could help but
frankly I doubt it.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>Why should we limit ourselves to one way or the
other? Don't you think that the more ways we have to
communicate the better? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why do some care so much that other people talk
among themselves with a set of rules, if they please
to do so? Isn't forcing this no-rules rule on them a
way of limiting their expression?
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,<br>
<br>
Muriel
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You are a good person, thanks for your feedback. Know
your friends.<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2013/6/15 Anouk <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jakobsheep@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jakobsheep@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p>Hi Muriel and others,<br>
I like to point out that /anyone/ feeling
intimidated should/must speak out loud.
For how do we know that this is happening
?</p>
<p>Secondly, how does one survive at the
real political scene ? If we can't deal
with straigth forward problems as Antonio
has argumented, what chance do the pirates
have in public functions ? <br>
I still see his arguments on the table not
being handled well. Kindergarten is
unfortunately an good metaphore, and I
like to add, without supervision.
(although I like to point out that I also
do see progress). Unfortunately sometimes
things have to go worse before things
improve. (It is called, everybody has to
reinvent that same wheel)<br>
This is my opinion and I do not experience
the discussions as intolerable, au
contraire. I get more and more insights
in the persons that shout and curse. This
is how they profile themselves, then that
is how they are. The truth (with humans)
is more often ugly then beautiful,
unfortunately. Deal with it rather then
keeping it at a distance.</p>
<span><font color="#888888">
<p>Anouk<br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 15, 2013
11:03 PM, "Muriel Rovira Esteva" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:muriel@pirata.cat"
target="_blank">muriel@pirata.cat</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Hello,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I fail to see how leaving this
list as it is, and open a new one
for people who likes to discuss
differently is censoring anyone in
any way. :)<br>
<br>
In any case, it would be all the
contrary, it would give the
oportunity to all those who may
feel a bit intimidated here to say
something to speak their mind and
participate.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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<pre wrap="">____________________________________________________
Pirate Parties International - General Talk
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</pre>
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