<div dir="ltr">I was personally the last who supported Antonio in PP-ES and the one, as moderator of the list, to ban him to my regrets. As Juan said we try to have him reconduct his attitude to a more educative one. But we failed.<div>
<br></div><div>Antonio's ideas are not that wrong and I can say I share some of them but I have choosen the hard way: Try to integrates the newcommers to the party.</div><div><br></div><div>I had a solution, it was to create a preentrance list where to receive newcommers and explain them what is the PIRATE ideals and how we deal with events. But I didn't received the support from any side of the Party. </div>
<div><br></div><div>I joined the party not for myself. In my youth I have done lots of things to defend liberties. I'm 56 now and have twin girls 5 y/o, I came back to the fight for them and will not abandon.</div><div>
<br></div><div>Best regards</div><div><br></div><div>Francisco</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2013/6/17 Galileo Galilei <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:otrosmundos@gmail.com" target="_blank">otrosmundos@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I barely never write in the list but, after all what's happenin' i<br>
want to give my opinion 'bout some points:<br>
<br>
-Antonio is a clever man, but with a very interiorized Mesiah Complex<br>
where he thinks he is the only one who can lead the movement and his<br>
own reasonings are the only ones that are right. But, If you analyze a<br>
bit any of them, what he is always saying it is only a junk pack of<br>
preacher's talk without any solutions but a lot of fails and demagogic<br>
mistakes. He has only two arguments in his constant speech. We are in<br>
a Kindergarden and that's all fault of the Massive Dinamics. While he<br>
can be right or not, he is puting it's own massive dinamic on it so he<br>
is failing in the same mistake he wants to repair. And the Playground<br>
question it is because he cannot admit in either way, any other person<br>
is right in nothing, so, in his messianic mind, we are child and we<br>
dont' know nothing. So he is never going to do nothing for themovement<br>
except to protest and insult the others, and in his mind, that's a way<br>
to make us evolve Those things makes him become the most noisy troll<br>
we have in all the movement.<br>
<br>
I dont't care about his trollness thing, he is free to say we are<br>
incompetent, but i care about respect and freedom in saying whatever<br>
you want to say, with respect. I think it is the only point we have to<br>
care, and that's not censhorship.. I don't think it is a need to<br>
insult noone or to fail in respecting him/her because you can. If you<br>
are smart, you don't need it. So I need a moderate rating only in that<br>
purpose, that i thought it was a must be in whatever we defend. So i<br>
suggest to moderate insults and unrespectful episodes.<br>
<br>
After that, I have to criticice the movement itself. It is true that<br>
int is becoming something too much institucional and without a good<br>
time reacting. It barely does what it's been created, to help their<br>
members to grow, to react on whatever the movement has to say<br>
something, to communicate between it's members.<br>
<br>
This global group is useless if we are not informed of were is going<br>
to be a new pirate election, or what we can do for helping from the<br>
other part of the world. This group is useless if noone gives an idea<br>
of what to do in things like Manning or Anonymous, and seems that is<br>
waiting reactions from national pirates. This group has nothing to do<br>
if he cannot control which parties exist, in their totallity,<br>
including their pages and having a public location for those<br>
directions of all the movement. In an easy way for all kind of<br>
visitors.<br>
<br>
We need a large talk about our future for becoming more visible and<br>
efficient, and whatever it is in the list is not the problem, the<br>
problem begins with organization.<br>
<br>
2013/6/17, <a href="mailto:pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net</a>>:<br>
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> Today's Topics:<br>
><br>
> 1. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Francisco George)<br>
> 2. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Antonio Garcia)<br>
> 3. A small sample of what is happening is Brazil<br>
> (SecretariaGeral Piratas)<br>
> 4. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Fr?d?ric JOUVIN)<br>
> 5. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Zbigniew ?ukasiak)<br>
><br>
><br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200<br>
> From: Francisco George <<a href="mailto:francisco.george@gmail.com">francisco.george@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
> <<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <CANfKYYzL=<a href="mailto:EzZExSSp5XaF8N8vW0Hi8RBiLCSUN5C%2BNx2NEW6Uw@mail.gmail.com">EzZExSSp5XaF8N8vW0Hi8RBiLCSUN5C+Nx2NEW6Uw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
><br>
> Dear Antonio,<br>
><br>
> As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are OUT of<br>
> our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your return<br>
> as you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten<br>
> argument when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to evolve.<br>
><br>
> Best regards<br>
> Francisco George<br>
> Member of the PP-ES Board<br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
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><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 2<br>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:43:39 +0000<br>
> From: Antonio Garcia <<a href="mailto:ningunotro@hotmail.com">ningunotro@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
> <<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list<br>
> Message-ID: <DUB119-W64986C9712183379FF879DC820@phx.gbl><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
><br>
> Let me guess? You ain't telling me :) .<br>
><br>
> Please, please very much... do evolve.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Antonio.<br>
><br>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:francisco.george@gmail.com">francisco.george@gmail.com</a><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list<br>
><br>
> Dear Antonio,<br>
><br>
> As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are OUT of<br>
> our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your return as<br>
> you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten argument<br>
> when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to evolve.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Best regards<br>
><br>
> Francisco George<br>
><br>
> Member of the PP-ES Board<br>
><br>
><br>
> ____________________________________________________<br>
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
><br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
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><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 3<br>
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 23:14:57 -0300<br>
> From: SecretariaGeral Piratas <<a href="mailto:secretariageral@partidopirata.org">secretariageral@partidopirata.org</a>><br>
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
> <<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
> Subject: [pp.int.general] A small sample of what is happening is<br>
> Brazil<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <<a href="mailto:CAF_PSNMrKNrkNFzH6pdyU71QPVF0uAvD3fks6pDrMOSzFEab%2Bg@mail.gmail.com">CAF_PSNMrKNrkNFzH6pdyU71QPVF0uAvD3fks6pDrMOSzFEab+g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
><br>
> ... in case you were wondering:<br>
> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/notes/ppbr-partido-pirata-do-brasil/nota-do-partido-pirata-do-brasil-sobre-as-manifesta%C3%A7%C3%B5es-decorrentes-do-aumento-d/632006643493515" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/notes/ppbr-partido-pirata-do-brasil/nota-do-partido-pirata-do-brasil-sobre-as-manifesta%C3%A7%C3%B5es-decorrentes-do-aumento-d/632006643493515</a><br>
><br>
> People kneeling on the floor with their hands in the air were being shot at<br>
> almost point-blank with rubber bullets, on their faces. Expired tear gas<br>
> shells were shot.<br>
><br>
> Press was attacked as well, arrested. One reporter was shot in the eye and<br>
> is blind, another one almost got blind.<br>
><br>
> Police seizing vinegar from protesters and press so they cannot protect<br>
> themselves from the effects of tear gas and pepper spray. And so on.<br>
><br>
> And it?s spreading around the country. Police abuse in S?o Paulo last<br>
> week, police abuse yesterday in Brasilia, police abuse today in Rio de<br>
> Janeiro. And many, many other cities.<br>
><br>
> FIFA Confederations Cup began in Brazil. Government created no-protest<br>
> no-expression exception zones around the country, so things will get<br>
> rougher.<br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
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><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 4<br>
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 08:33:44 +0200<br>
> From: Fr?d?ric JOUVIN <<a href="mailto:frederic.jouvin@gmail.com">frederic.jouvin@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
> <<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
> Cc: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
> <<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list<br>
> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:90E5775F-11A1-4A68-956D-2552CF1B0FBF@gmail.com">90E5775F-11A1-4A68-956D-2552CF1B0FBF@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
><br>
> Hi Antonio.<br>
><br>
> I am here to bring you my full support, from my PP FR personnal disaster<br>
> experience.<br>
><br>
> I loved particularily loved one of your declarations :<br>
><br>
> "PPI is becoming another damn USA governmentlike corporate entity, counting<br>
> on all the children to unwittingly make up the big controlled mass."<br>
><br>
> I've read some of your emails, and mostly agree with all what you are<br>
> stating.<br>
><br>
> Regarding the most important problems I saw in France at PP FR is that they<br>
> are good at :<br>
><br>
> - Spending all their energy and time in doing things that will not change<br>
> the future at all, not even help spreading our voice and values. Indeed,<br>
> every time somebody wants to build a project that could have an impact on<br>
> something, this guy is charged by a clearly "nasayer" identified group that<br>
> will pull it out of the party.<br>
><br>
> - Too much infiltrations from some governement agencies into the party<br>
> itself, so much that real cypherpunks and hacktivists are clearly adviced<br>
> not to go to the PP FR if they do not want to get into serious troubles.<br>
><br>
> - They clearly did all what they could to in the end not support bradley<br>
> manning, assange, etc. They hardly fake their support to the cypherpunk<br>
> values and goals. They never want to really support any true hacktivists<br>
> event. They don't like the Anon familly and so on. I had to fight like<br>
> nobody could believe about bradley manning.<br>
><br>
> - They don't want to talk about philosophy and values of the cypherpunks.<br>
><br>
> To me, they defend the current system and statut quo, and they don't give a<br>
> fuck about cypherpunks and crypto-anarchists values and revolution.<br>
><br>
> And yes, to me, it's leading to nowhere.<br>
> They are here just to make people loose their time.<br>
><br>
> Of course, they are some real and honnest pirates in this party, but it's<br>
> like they have lost influence, and power, and they can't spread the good<br>
> words and love in this party any longer.<br>
><br>
> ----------------------------------<br>
> Le 16 juin 2013 ? 20:43, Antonio Garcia <<a href="mailto:ningunotro@hotmail.com">ningunotro@hotmail.com</a>> a ?crit :<br>
><br>
>> Let me guess? You ain't telling me :) .<br>
>><br>
>> Please, please very much... do evolve.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Antonio.<br>
>><br>
>> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200<br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:francisco.george@gmail.com">francisco.george@gmail.com</a><br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list<br>
>><br>
>> Dear Antonio,<br>
>> As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are OUT of<br>
>> our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your return<br>
>> as you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten<br>
>> argument when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to<br>
>> evolve.<br>
>> Best regards<br>
>> Francisco George<br>
>> Member of the PP-ES Board<br>
>><br>
>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties<br>
>> International - General Talk <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
>> ____________________________________________________<br>
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
>> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
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><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 5<br>
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:00:49 +0200<br>
> From: Zbigniew ?ukasiak <<a href="mailto:zzbbyy@gmail.com">zzbbyy@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
> <<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <<a href="mailto:CAGL_UUthiUUL0Mt6UmYx60AZ6kWMZRrS1NMEfw7u2pMg50WW7w@mail.gmail.com">CAGL_UUthiUUL0Mt6UmYx60AZ6kWMZRrS1NMEfw7u2pMg50WW7w@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Fr?d?ric JOUVIN<br>
> <<a href="mailto:frederic.jouvin@gmail.com">frederic.jouvin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Hi Antonio.<br>
>><br>
>> I am here to bring you my full support, from my PP FR personnal disaster<br>
>> experience.<br>
>><br>
>> I loved particularily loved one of your declarations :<br>
>><br>
>> "PPI is becoming another damn USA governmentlike corporate entity,<br>
>> counting<br>
>> on all the children to unwittingly make up the big controlled mass."<br>
>><br>
>> I've read some of your emails, and mostly agree with all what you are<br>
>> stating.<br>
>><br>
>> Regarding the most important problems I saw in France at PP FR is that<br>
>> they<br>
>> are good at :<br>
>><br>
>> - Spending all their energy and time in doing things that will not change<br>
>> the future at all, not even help spreading our voice and values. Indeed,<br>
>> every time somebody wants to build a project that could have an impact on<br>
>> something, this guy is charged by a clearly "nasayer" identified group<br>
>> that<br>
>> will pull it out of the party.<br>
>><br>
>> - Too much infiltrations from some governement agencies into the party<br>
>> itself, so much that real cypherpunks and hacktivists are clearly adviced<br>
>> not to go to the PP FR if they do not want to get into serious troubles.<br>
>><br>
>> - They clearly did all what they could to in the end not support bradley<br>
>> manning, assange, etc. They hardly fake their support to the cypherpunk<br>
>> values and goals. They never want to really support any true hacktivists<br>
>> event. They don't like the Anon familly and so on. I had to fight like<br>
>> nobody could believe about bradley manning.<br>
>><br>
>> - They don't want to talk about philosophy and values of the cypherpunks.<br>
>><br>
>> To me, they defend the current system and statut quo, and they don't give<br>
>> a<br>
>> fuck about cypherpunks and crypto-anarchists values and revolution.<br>
>><br>
>> And yes, to me, it's leading to nowhere.<br>
>> They are here just to make people loose their time.<br>
>><br>
>> Of course, they are some real and honnest pirates in this party, but it's<br>
>> like they have lost influence, and power, and they can't spread the good<br>
>> words and love in this party any longer.<br>
><br>
> I can understand your frustration - but unfortunately I don't know too<br>
> much about the French pirates - so I cannot discuss that part of your<br>
> email.<br>
><br>
> As to your support for Antonio Garcia - does that mean that you<br>
> believe that one person should have the right to dominate this mailing<br>
> list by an avalanche of emails? I don't. Personally I also find<br>
> these emails frequently void of any new content and filled with the<br>
> same expressions of his frustration. This boring and also frustrating<br>
> to read this over and over again, but I would not complain on that,<br>
> because it is hard to draw a line here and decide who is boring and<br>
> repeating. What is more objective and easier to judge is the sheer<br>
> amount of text he sends to this list - this is like shouting in a<br>
> meeting - effectively making other voices inaudible and this is not<br>
> democratic. I have the feeling he does not want to take us as his<br>
> peers - but rather beat us into submission by his writing. I don't<br>
> find this kind of action acceptable.<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Zbigniew<br>
><br>
><br>
>><br>
>> ----------------------------------<br>
>> Le 16 juin 2013 ? 20:43, Antonio Garcia <<a href="mailto:ningunotro@hotmail.com">ningunotro@hotmail.com</a>> a ?crit<br>
>> :<br>
>><br>
>> Let me guess? You ain't telling me :) .<br>
>><br>
>> Please, please very much... do evolve.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Antonio.<br>
>><br>
>> ________________________________<br>
>> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200<br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:francisco.george@gmail.com">francisco.george@gmail.com</a><br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list<br>
>><br>
>> Dear Antonio,<br>
>> As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are OUT<br>
>> of<br>
>> our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your return<br>
>> as<br>
>> you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten argument<br>
>> when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to evolve.<br>
>> Best regards<br>
>> Francisco George<br>
>> Member of the PP-ES Board<br>
>><br>
>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties<br>
>> International - General Talk <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
>><br>
>> ____________________________________________________<br>
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
>> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ____________________________________________________<br>
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
>> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Zbigniew Lukasiak<br>
> <a href="http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/</a><br>
> <a href="http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
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> End of pp.international.general Digest, Vol 76, Issue 61<br>
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><br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
--<br>
"Natural e Inconfundible :)"<br>
"La informatica es una competición entre los ingenieros del software,<br>
que tratan de crear mejores programas a prueba de tontos; y el<br>
Universo, que trata de crear mejores tontos. Por ahora el Universo va<br>
ganando..."<br>
____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
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