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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>Not only that, Josef. It is not only for "leaders", it is for leaders that are part of a certain initial core group or willing to indulge them.<br><br>At least "technically", I am an oficcially elected member of the board of the Spanish Pirate Party.<br><br>Yet many conspire to keep me out of whatever when I might not be a consenting collaborator of those "in charge", logic be fucked, ethics be fucked, pirate values and the official Statutes of the PPI be fucked if it suits them to achieve this.<br><br>In Prague, populist mass dynamics, breaches to the PPI Statutes, blackmail, and kiddy behaviour ended in the irregular admission of the Pirate Party of Catalonia as a full member of the PPI.<br><br>Any legitimate attempt to undo this has been thwarted with every possible dirty trick one can conceive...<br><br>... and the PPI GA 2013 in Kazan/Brussels has sanctified that dirty tricks is the official way to get things done in the Pirate Movement.<br><br><br>It is VERY HARD not to be seen as a troll in the only channel left where one can express himself as a victim of all this.<br><br>And the more bastard one is... the more one yells to have my voice definitively removed :( .<br><br><br>In fact, if I really were a troll... I would be saying far more stupid things, far more often, and this would be fun, and not an intellectual torture.<br><br>Know thyself.<br><br><br>Antonio.<br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 12:14:34 -0500<br>From: international@piratpartiet.se<br>To: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>Subject: [pp.int.general] a few problems with this list and lack of responsibility from PPI<br><br><div dir="ltr"><div class="ecxgmail_extra"><div class="ecxgmail_quote"><div>Thanks for in-directly pointing out several problems with the current way things are run. </div><div><br></div><div>As you mention the only lists PPI supports are the official ones. They only have lists for leaders, leaving no place for normal members to discuss. If PPI would be strictly beurocratic it would make sense to have it that way but they are trying to reach all ways with their goals. Claiming to be transparent and democratic</div>
<div><br></div><div>If PPI has no wish to be affiliated in any way with this list then at least try to make an attempt of changing it's name. Or at the very least give an option to those persons that want to discuss relevant things in a relevant place. If this is not the place then where? This list has clearly said it will enforce no rules and leave discussion climate free to any troll who wishes to speak, thus it's not an option for me to try to have a serious conversation with people. It brings more head-ache then good with constant bickering and personal attacks.</div>
<div><br></div><div>One of big flaws of PPI today is that it's not democratic enough imo. "PPI is it's members" <- members here signify "board members of respective parties in PPI" whom almost all have too much focus on national affairs to spend that effort dividing their time to a beurocratic international organization that clearly needs a lot of work to improve. If you're just a normal member of a party but interested in international affairs you don't have much of a say in PPI. This exclusive climate is hurting more than it's aiding.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Kindly,</div><div>Josef</div><div>(strictly my own opinions and do not represent PPSE)</div><div><br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 16:02:31 +0100<br>
From: Nuno Cardoso <<a href="mailto:nuno.cardoso@pp-international.net">nuno.cardoso@pp-international.net</a>><br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] FORMAL COMPLAINT ABOUT THE<br>
ADMINISTRATION/MODERATION OF PPI MAILING LISTS<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CALT-PSSD7bck-knD4e-oh3L20DO415uD4PP=<a href="mailto:AkdrW-Xkp3oa1w@mail.gmail.com">AkdrW-Xkp3oa1w@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Considering that:<br>
<br>
- this list is not run by the PPI;<br>
- this list is not an official communication channel of the PPI, it has<br>
pp-leaders list for that;<br>
- this list is not an official discussion channel of the PPI, it<br>
has pp-leaders.discussion for that;<br>
- this list is not an official operations coordination channel of the<br>
PPI, it has pp-ops for that;<br>
- this list is not an official channel of the PPI in any way, it has yet<br>
other specific lists;<br>
<br>
Ignoring PPI because of it seems nonsensical...<br>
<br>
What if in Finland some list called pp-finland existed that, despite not<br>
being run by PP Finland, would grab the attention of all Finns and, because<br>
it was "filled to the brim with personal issues that should be kept in<br>
personal mails and all kinds of useless bullshit", would make everyone<br>
ignore PP Finland? What would be your opinion on that?<br>
<br>
On a broader level, to all PP's, if a PPI member can't cope with this<br>
non-PPI list, instead of ignoring PPI because of this list it should ignore<br>
this list because of PPI!<br>
<br>
If anything this unmoderated list serves as an escape valve for individuals<br>
and all their "kinds of useless bullshit" not to contaminate the official<br>
channels of PPI.<br>
<br>
Furthermore PPI needs it's members not to ignore it because PPI IS it's<br>
members! PP's ignoring PPI is only helping it degrade.<br>
<br>
And don't think that making a new PPI would fix it, because the fundamental<br>
problem of individuals and their bullshit will not go away, it will just<br>
migrate it's focus and attach itself to it's new victim.<br>
<br>
Creating Pirate Parties to *fix a broken political system from within* is<br>
what we signed up to do, in opposition to those who just *ignore* politics<br>
or those who cry revolution to *start from scratch*. If when faced with<br>
problems in PPI we just *ignore* it and some even consider to *start from<br>
scratch*, what does that tell about their ability to do what they have<br>
signed to do on the first place?<br>
<br>
Just my 2 cents of useless bullshit food for though ;)<br>
<br>
Pirate regards,<br>
Nuno<br>
<br>
On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Jyri H?m?l?inen <<a href="mailto:Wildfinn@gmail.com">Wildfinn@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> This mailing list is one of the reasons why the pirate party of Finland<br>
> pretty much completely ignores the PPI. It's 99% just trolls and hotheads<br>
> in South-European parties fighting over everything and anything they can<br>
> pick a fight over. It's filled to the brim with personal issues that should<br>
> be kept in personal mails and all kinds of useless bullshit.<br>
><br>
> I'd prefer moderation, but not paying any attention whatsoever to PPI<br>
> works too in the mean while.<br>
><br>
><br>
> 2013/6/22 Jelena Jovanovic <<a href="mailto:jelena.the.one@gmail.com">jelena.the.one@gmail.com</a>><br>
><br>
>> This is exactly what is going to happen.<br>
>> Honestly, i would not be happy to see anyone stepping out from this list<br>
>> because some people have problems that apparently escalate on ppint mailing<br>
>> list. Also i would like to avoid denying ppl to be exactly who they are.<br>
>> And i apologize for pprs contribution to the negative things here, we all<br>
>> slip off and get into the fight, its human. But dont be discouraged by that<br>
>> :) the only cure is to use ppint for good things as well and not let it be<br>
>> dominated by internal fights. So called trolling is usually exression of<br>
>> extremely strong emotions and problems that are not solved.<br>
>> I would advise to all of you to keep using this list, and use it<br>
>> more....no forks needed, maybe a slight moderation with only ground rules,<br>
>> related to offensive wording and similar stuff<br>
>> Brgds<br>
>> Jelena jovanovic, pprs<br>
>> On Jun 15, 2013 3:06 AM, "Travis McCrea" <<a href="mailto:me@travismccrea.com">me@travismccrea.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><b>International Contact for PPSE</b><br>Contact me for any questions/concerns or if you need to get hold of someone in Piratpartiet or internationally.<div><br><div><i>Other contact:</i></div>
<div>mail: <a href="mailto:international@piratpartiet.se" target="_blank">international@piratpartiet.se</a></div><div>Twitter: @collentine<br><div><a href="http://irc.pirateirc.net/" target="_blank">irc.pirateirc.net</a> user: collentine (always there but slow responses)</div>
<div>Skype: josef.ohlsson.collentine (only important conversations)</div><div>Cel: +52 55 48 23 52 83<span> (text me, if urgent)</span><br></div></div></div>
<br><div><br></div></blockquote></div>
</div></div>
<br>____________________________________________________
Pirate Parties International - General Talk
pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net
http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</div> </div></body>
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