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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>You see the big picture... you want to dream of. It is a nice one.<br><br>But you can't get there from present reality... unless you work within that reality.<br><br>You don't.<br><br><br>You do not see the big picture, I'm afraid I have to tell you.<br><br><br>And the fact that the majority does not see the big picture... is very bad when possible solutions have to be voted upon democratically.<br><br>Then democracy becomes part of the problem.<br><br><br>Antonio.<br><br><br><br><div>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:46:12 -0300<br>From: seykron@partidopirata.com.ar<br>To: pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Remember remember...<br><br><pre>Hi anouk. I think I wasn't clear enough. What I was trying to say is that current<br>politics doesn't take into account that 2/3 of the world you mention. Labouring<br>class and poor people are always hostages of capitalism and the State. I see how<br>poor people is forced to vote certain parties and assist to political<br>demonstrations to conserve an even poorly subsidy. I saw once how someone said to<br>a poor unemployed guy "shut up, you cannot speak to him about it" when he tried<br>to denounce the pressure. I see how part of this 2/3 of the world is convinced<br>through advertising that it's better to buy things they don't need instead of<br>more basic things they don't have. I see how children go to school to get some<br>food and how they are trained to love the goverment instead of giving them a<br>useful education to get out from their situation. I see how poverty destroys<br>empathy and how it builds distorted relationships. This last one is the worst<br>point to me: people are suffering because of very troublesome relationships based<br>on issues they shouldn't have to be aware of. Say nothing of financial debts<br>caused by ridiculous unsecured-loans interests (up to 60% here in Argentina). I<br>could continue but I don't (let me know if you're interested in Argentina's<br>situation, I could write a little review).<br> <br>So, you can dissent with me, but don't tell me I don't see the big picture. I'm<br>not against businesses or commerce at all. However, I see how corporations (in<br>every sense of the word, including the goverment) are modeling the society based<br>on unreal values, far away from human values (whatever they'll be). Answering<br>your question, that is what is wrong with capitalism to me. That's because I<br>think being a "pirate" means to think out of the box, far away from the<br>capitalist paradigm. Betiel exposed very clearly some of the goals we're trying<br>to achieve in PPAr.<br> <br>Hope it clarified my point.<br> <br>Matías<br> <br> <br>On 2013-07-11 05:18:24PM, Anouk wrote:<br>> Hi Matias, I don't think you understood my message. I give it a last try.<br>> <br>> The last world war was also a transitional time :p<br>> <br>> In your oversimplified generalisation, you only reason with the introvert<br>> perspective of a typical middle class western world view.<br>> You do not take in account the 2/3 of the rest of the world and assume what<br>> is 'good' for them and everybody else. Have you ever considered asking the<br>> really poor people what they really need?<br>> <br>> This fits the liniair thinking of theorists like Karl Marx, locked in their<br>> library. meeting only friends that agree amongst themselves, writing<br>> fiction about the world (and selling for profit?)<br>> <br>> So 1 communism only works in a world WITHOUT any nations/different states<br>> !!! (hence purely theoretical)<br>> And 2 what is wrong with capitalism ??? (other then examples of unethical<br>> abuse of this principle, if I kill someone with a hammer, should we then<br>> ban that same hammer ?!?)<br>> 3 I could continue but I don't.<br>> <br>> I simply advise to do less utopian talk unless it is compared to a real<br>> world situation.<br>> That's all, keep up the good spirit,<br>> <br>> anouk.<br>> <br>> <br>> On 8 July 2013 23:20, seykron <seykron@partidopirata.com.ar> wrote:<br>> <br>> > Thanks for sharing your experience, Anouk, it is very appreciated.<br>> ><br>> > Indeed, I wrote these thoughts taking into account we're living in a<br>> > transitional<br>> > time between an old-fashioned politics and a new kind of social movement.<br>> > As<br>> > usually happens in any transition, there exist a "tradition" trying to<br>> > save the<br>> > current order and a new power promoting the breaking of that order. I<br>> > think this<br>> > kind of "elastic period" is very confusing because old and new orders are<br>> > mixing<br>> > them up to consolidate either the winning of tradition, or the rising of a<br>> > new<br>> > paradigm. That's because being a pirate is quite confusing, and many people<br>> > immersed in the old paradigm will try to accomplish their own interests<br>> > applying<br>> > over the pirate movement the same obsolete recipes.<br>> ><br>> > But there are wind of changes (it began some time ago, there is a brilliant<br>> > paper describing the problem from the economical and political<br>> > situation[1]), and<br>> > I cannot ignore the fact that the last two important changes in history<br>> > were<br>> > during the first two decades of the century, and the fact that people is<br>> > able to<br>> > organize mass protests in a short time period to complain about abuses<br>> > headed by<br>> > goverments. I see goverments trying to fix a speech they can hardly<br>> > maintain, and<br>> > I see groups like Anonymous publishing documents that are buried by<br>> > political<br>> > parties[2].<br>> ><br>> > That's because I think a "pirate party" is an accident, and it might not<br>> > assume<br>> > the representation for thousand of people over the world which are asking<br>> > for<br>> > real changes in social relationships and power distribution. That's<br>> > because I<br>> > didn't define what the "treasure" is, it's something in the air. I<br>> > encourage you<br>> > to keep working in the same direction and just ignore people that consider<br>> > you a<br>> > troll. If you read Descartes or Kant right now, after several centuries,<br>> > you<br>> > will note they sound quite childish. The same will happen to those that<br>> > try to<br>> > force an old model to fit the new one.<br>> ><br>> > There're a lot of work to do, there are people that's trying to survive<br>> > and we<br>> > cannot get close to them speaking in terms of "changes", it doesn't work<br>> > at all.<br>> > "Change" means nothing for the most people in the world. I don't figure<br>> > out what<br>> > is the way, but nobody can deny something very tense is moving through the<br>> > world.<br>> > Our reflections will be lost in the ocean of information until someone in<br>> > the<br>> > future find it out to understand why "pirate parties failed" or why<br>> > "goverments<br>> > spy us" or the best scenario, "how capitalism became obsolete".<br>> > Comprehensive<br>> > experience documentation (a.k.a. reflection) is essential to understand the<br>> > future.<br>> ><br>> > Matías<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > [1] Claus Offe, Competitive party democracy and the Keynesian welfare<br>> > state:<br>> > Factors of stability and disorganization, 1983. Here's the spanish version:<br>> > <a href="http://bit.ly/14FRoPH" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/14FRoPH</a><br>> > [2] <a href="http://bit.ly/15rhVCF" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/15rhVCF</a><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On 2013-07-08 09:03:02AM, Anouk wrote:<br>> > > Great piece Matias,<br>> > ><br>> > > I have 'analized' the same, but my conclusion is much more simple. Too<br>> > big<br>> > > are the ego's, too much oversimplified and generalized reasoning. And in<br>> > > the end no real social cohesion (not more then at an average houseparty<br>> > > until the booze runs out). The moment this 'treasure' involves ethical<br>> > > dilemmas instead of solving this there is plain denial (very powerfull<br>> > > ego-tool), walking away from it or infantile dogmas are used.<br>> > ><br>> > > Where are the (mental and emotional) grown-up pirates ?<br>> > ><br>> > > Fortunately everybody can call me a troll and we can keep on discussing<br>> > on<br>> > > a childish level as usual.<br>> > ><br>> > > There is a basic difference between being naive or being infantile. This<br>> > is<br>> > > the real challenge.<br>> > > Good luck with your reflections,<br>> > ><br>> > > by the way, getting kicked out of 'the group' is my middle name :) I<br>> > > challenge ALL 'group-thinking' on its errors, dogma and inconsistencies.<br>> > > And 'the group' NEVER likes this. Getting rid of the abusive and<br>> > > manipulative egoists would heal the pirates, not more partying.<br>> > ><br>> > > anouk<br>> > > On Jul 8, 2013 3:07 AM, "seykron" <seykron@partidopirata.com.ar> wrote:<br>> > ><br>> > > > I have been reading this maillist for a while, and I realized there're<br>> > some<br>> > > > worries leading to tensions between several groups. I understand this<br>> > is<br>> > > > the<br>> > > > nature of politics, because politics is made of tense relationships<br>> > with<br>> > > > each<br>> > > > group wanting to win "something". To be more specific, in the deep<br>> > under<br>> > > > discussions I can see the "identity problem" (sometimes very<br>> > explicitly).<br>> > > > It's<br>> > > > a recurring problem because we're all human beings and we've got a<br>> > > > knowledge<br>> > > > base that defines us as subjects. So... here goes my question: is it<br>> > > > possible<br>> > > > to build a common identity in terms of politics?<br>> > > ><br>> > > > I've not got the answer, but I'd like to share some reflections with<br>> > you.<br>> > > > If we<br>> > > > part from the basic premise that we all have different interests,<br>> > > > perspectives,<br>> > > > mindsets, and we accept it's almost impossible to put together these<br>> > > > elements,<br>> > > > perhaps we'll reach the heart of the problem. We are usually involved<br>> > in<br>> > > > large<br>> > > > word fights to win rhetorical wars instead of figuring out the dissent<br>> > and<br>> > > > trying to find a way out to reach an agreement. At this point, it's<br>> > > > impossible<br>> > > > to see the forest for the trees and it implicitly breaks something. But<br>> > > > that<br>> > > > "something" that is collapsing is the same thing that has previously<br>> > > > brought us<br>> > > > together for a reason, it is our cohesion key. I think the common<br>> > identity<br>> > > > is<br>> > > > very close to that "something", and since we're pirates I'd like to<br>> > call it<br>> > > > "treasure".<br>> > > ><br>> > > > The question is a challenge now: what's that treasure? Please, don't<br>> > tell<br>> > > > me<br>> > > > that it doesn't belong to reality, it's more real that any proposal or<br>> > > > thought<br>> > > > because we're thinking, taking decisions and fighting for that unknown<br>> > > > treasure. If someone says "I'm not aware of such foolish things, I'm<br>> > > > trying to<br>> > > > make something real in Parliament" or "I'm not aware of such foolish<br>> > > > things,<br>> > > > I'm trying to make something real in the streets" without any<br>> > criticism and<br>> > > > reflection about their own activity, it's signal of imminent loss of<br>> > the<br>> > > > way to<br>> > > > the treasure, whatever it might be. Criticism without action is<br>> > > > meaningless,<br>> > > > action without self criticism is selfishness.<br>> > > ><br>> > > > What I do know is this treasure is very big and it requires a<br>> > compromise<br>> > > > from<br>> > > > many different positions. I cannot understand all topics, but I trust<br>> > in<br>> > > > other<br>> > > > pirates that understand those topics. That's why I do accept<br>> > parliamentary<br>> > > > labour as well as social research, and that's why no matter what the<br>> > > > ideology of<br>> > > > the ones working in different topics is, I trust we all are looking<br>> > for the<br>> > > > same treasure.<br>> > > ><br>> > > > Maybe we'll never define what the treasure is, maybe it's convenient to<br>> > > > leave<br>> > > > it undefined, but there're values around it: we already spoke about<br>> > > > participatory democracy, public transparency, free culture and<br>> > knowledge<br>> > > > (in<br>> > > > terms of freedom), horizontality, respect, responsibility. I also think<br>> > > > personal<br>> > > > interests are essential to carry out jobs with passion. If someone<br>> > likes<br>> > > > to make<br>> > > > money or think in alternative labour models is the same to me. An<br>> > identity<br>> > > > is<br>> > > > something that is always changing and it is never completely defined,<br>> > but<br>> > > > on the<br>> > > > other hand it has a very high consistency because of underlying values.<br>> > > > The key<br>> > > > question to validate whether someone is working for its own purpose or<br>> > not<br>> > > > is<br>> > > > simple: how does your job brings us closer to the treasure?. No matter<br>> > > > how, if<br>> > > > that person is able to answer this simple question without doubts,<br>> > it's a<br>> > > > pirate,<br>> > > > and if not, it's just another piece taken away for the estalishment.<br>> > > ><br>> > > > My message is it: get back to the roots, we're all human beings and we<br>> > > > have very<br>> > > > difficult relationships. Just accept that and let's drink a beer to<br>> > laugh<br>> > > > about<br>> > > > our limitations. Learn lessons from history and your own errors, and be<br>> > > > honest<br>> > > > when your interests no longer fits the pirate way. Be scared of you,<br>> > and<br>> > > > scared<br>> > > > of each other, everyone and nobody's looking at you. Your errors will<br>> > be<br>> > > > saw by<br>> > > > thousand of people wanting to propose another way to do the same you're<br>> > > > doing,<br>> > > > if you cannot accept your mistake and let others help you, someone else<br>> > > > will make<br>> > > > it right and you will not longer be reliable: nobody and everyone will<br>> > > > kick you<br>> > > > out.-<br>> > > ><br>> > > > Matías<br>> > > ><br>> > > > ____________________________________________________<br>> > > > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > > > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > > > <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> ><br>> > > ____________________________________________________<br>> > > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > > <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > ____________________________________________________<br>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> > pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> > <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>> ><br>> ><br> <br>> ____________________________________________________<br>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>> pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net<br>> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br> <br></pre><br>____________________________________________________
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