<div dir="ltr">Great Points and great discussion. Sorry, it got a bit lengthy though.<br><br>Zbigniew Łukasiak<br>++1<br><br>Tom Behets<br>She may be onto something!<br>+1<br><br>Koen De Voegt and Thrasos Nerantzis:<br>"maximum
income" sounds good in theory but you forget to differentiate between
INCOME and ASSETS. I think I know in which direction you are firing, but
people “earning a lot” are not the problem (Steve Jobs made 1$ a year),
they maybe the tip of the iceberg but not more. The issue is rather
about, concentration, accumulation and inheritance. Believe me, some
Banker Bonuses are really nothing in compression. But I do understand
that this is easy game for elections as such: Fire at will! :)<br><br>Davidd van Deijk and Francisco George<br>Alaska
sounds interesting! But I think you also get money if you e.g. speak
Irish in Ireland. The payment is limited to a certain function and as
such no basic income but a subsidy to populate an uninhabitable area or
speak funny. - as such off topic :(<br><br>alexis.roussel<br>+1<br><br>## As for unconditional basic income<br>I
think the “left” suffers from the fact that you can never save a
thoughtless person from himself. No matter how hard they try. It won't
change the real conditions as they are made by mindsets.<br><br>In
Germany a lot support, at least for the idea itself, is actually rooted
in the “rather right” capitalist circles that are the CDU/CSU. Not
kidding. Think “Christian Social Ethics”.<br><br>They (CDU/CSU) do also harbor a lot of social envy which makes it a little schizophrenic.<br> <br><br>## But I’d love to add even more color to it:<br><br>I
personally was first in support of the unconditional basic income
because of everything Zbigniew wrote. Additionally it sounds like a
great opportunity to enable people to contribute to the greater society
but I turned against it as I came to understand that the underlying
premise was rather flawed. I especially found that, we as society should
allow those who are highly skilled/efficient a way out of the
treadmill. Meaning for example to have the top software developer not
working to increase the profit of some multinational but rather
contribute to something great for all of humanity e.g. some open source
project, etc (those people have the highest lever after all).<br><br>### What’s the issue?<br>Only
a little portion of those high performing people will actually be
attracted by it. Even worse, a lot of potential will only be realized
under a certain pressure that will be equally(!) taken out of the kettle
(I am looking here at myself). You can't rise if you don't fall!<br>There
is further an ever increasing cohort on the bottom of the labor market
that will hardly ever provide more value to the economy then they would
get as a basic income. Thus, they will be not only priced out of the
market but also out of dignity which may actually cause a disastrous
effect in a society that is so firmly rooted in the labor theory of
value.<br><br>## Alternative?<br>The top performer would probably
appreciate a “path to early retirement” once the social conscious comes
nagging rather than some kind of handout. This idea has not arrived in
politics yet.<br><br>## Now I turned recently AGAIN in favor of basic income :) Here is why:<br><br>Because
I found that viewing it as basic income is actually dead wrong. It is
rather an Economic Rent that would provide a human being (by default)
for the first time in history with a clear price tag. Think: the value
of a human calculated for airplane safety checks. If you like it or not,
currently 80% don't score very high.<br><a href="http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/2011/01/articles/airlines/faa-human-life-worth-6-million/">http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/2011/01/articles/airlines/faa-human-life-worth-6-million/</a><br>
<br>We
could enter into agreements with a lot less traction because, payment
default, up to the basic income would be practically impossible. It
would lift the debt “worthiness” incredibly and as such fuel the
economy.<br><br>By its nature the Basic Income has actually more
qualities of a “Marriage Loan”. Just paid in installments instead of a
lump sum and without the obligation of having children.<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_loan">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_loan</a><br><br>It
technically provides the holder with a Life Annuity that is backed by
the Federal Government! Think about it. For Germany that would basically
mean a sort of a AAA Fixed Income Bond. This opens whole new
perspectives! The holder could swap the Basic Income like any other
coupon and the derivative could be securitized and sold separately.<br><br>Consider
that especially under current market conditions were there is a huge
appetite for investments with a high credit rating.<br><br>Only this has the potential to turn the stagflated future into a much brighter one.<br><br>## BUT<br>Not
to forget. It can also be used as highly efficient instrument to
manipulate the labor supply, for good and bad (e.g. like the marriage
loan). This I find the biggest downside risk. Subsequently it will be
inevitable that the economic welfare takes a hit.<br>Other downsides?
Everybody becomes a very visible liability, has anybody ever considered
how the balance sheet would look like? How about we introduce Basic
Income and let foreigners work and pay the taxes (like Switzerland,
Luxembourg?), they aren’t eligible after all - Win-Win? ;)</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Francisco George <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:francisco.george@gmail.com" target="_blank">francisco.george@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">The PP-ES stands in favour of Basic Income.<div><br></div><div>Actually there are already states that have BI implented.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Alaska</div><div>Some Arab emirates, but just for their nationals(emigrants are not included)</div>
<div><br></div><div>20 years ago a political party in Belgium started to defend this and got some hype.</div><div><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivant" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivant</a><br></div>
<div><a href="https://www.facebook.com/pages/vivant/60132009232" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/pages/vivant/60132009232</a><br>
</div><div><a href="http://www.vivanteurope.org/?lang=en" target="_blank">http://www.vivanteurope.org/?lang=en</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>As he was founded by a Millionaire <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Duch%C3%A2telet" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Duch%C3%A2telet</a> in Belgium and due to their alliance with Liberals, they have been considered a Center-right movement, </div>
<div><br></div><div>It is classified as "Progressive Liberalism" also known as "Social Liberalism" <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_liberalism" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_liberalism</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>Roland Duchatelet, it's founder, was Belgian Senator from 2007 > 2011 <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Duch%C3%A2telet" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Duch%C3%A2telet</a></div>
<div>
<br></div><div><br></div><div>The mixed(french/german) public tv has a special dossier about it <a href="http://future.arte.tv/fr/sujet/le-revenu-de-base-promesse-dun-avenir-meilleur" target="_blank">http://future.arte.tv/fr/sujet/le-revenu-de-base-promesse-dun-avenir-meilleur</a> (sorry just available in German or French)</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2013/7/13 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:illunatic@greenpirate.org" target="_blank">illunatic@greenpirate.org</a>></span><div><div class="h5"><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Kind of have to agree with that as I recently cut back to two days at my current job because I need more time available to do other things which pay more. They job was more than minimum wage, but not enough to fit my lavish lifestyle (sarcasm).<br>
<br>
Quoting Antonio Garcia <<a href="mailto:ningunotro@hotmail.com" target="_blank">ningunotro@hotmail.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>
Oh, yeah! Instead of being 50 units short to get to the end of the month, people would prefer to have nothing at all. Might be an option for people that do not accumulate fixed cost in their aim of running their life, like mortgages and such.<br>
<br>
I love intelligent comment and cheer it when I see some ;) .<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>
From: <a href="mailto:me@travismccrea.com" target="_blank">me@travismccrea.com</a><br>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 12:40:15 -0400<br>
To: <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@<u></u>lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Basic income - how does that fit into the pirate ideology?<br>
<br></div>
I have never heard of this argument? in reality it has no basis. If a company was paying you less than basic income, you would just not take the job, or you could quit the job.<div><br>
<br>
On 2013-07-12, at 10:06 AM, Cal. wrote:<br>
<br>
> On 12 July 2013 15:38, Betiel <<a href="mailto:betielix@gmail.com" target="_blank">betielix@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Personally I believe having a basic income helps to avoid abuses from some<br>
>> unethical companies.<br>
><br>
> It depends. A common leftist objection on basic income is that it<br>
> enables "unethical evil company" to offer jobs for very very very low<br>
> wages.<br>
> ______________________________<u></u>______________________<br>
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@<u></u>lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/pp.<u></u>international.general</a><br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>______________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@<u></u>lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/pp.<u></u>international.general</a><br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote><div><div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>______________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general@<u></u>lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/<u></u>mailman/listinfo/pp.<u></u>international.general</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><br></div>
<br>____________________________________________________<br>
Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>