<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Ah, and to address your points directly.<br><br></div>I guess 'we' in the general sense has the right to do anything with our world. But that does not extend to any individual having the right to do it against the wishes of the others.<br>
<br></div>I don't agree that existence
necessitates destruction, if allowing a difference between "destruction" and "change" without going deeper into how to define the terms than the first being a negative thing for most of us and the second might be a negative thing for a few.<br>
<br></div>As for degree permissible I believe it is the subject for the contract between the commoners and the private owner. In practice I think it should resemble free market valuation, in that the highest bidder determines the most valuable use of a resource, and is then obliged to compensate the commons with that amount. Whether to go full laissez faire or have a municipality as proxy for the commons is less important in my mind, and is what should differentiate left from right on this issue.<br>
<br></div>BR,<br></div>John<br><div><div><br><div><br><br></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:33 AM, John Nilsson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:john@milsson.nu" target="_blank">john@milsson.nu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>I guess you can arrive at it from different angles. My take is that of coexistance, I take it as axiomatic that we all benefit from seeking non-violent resolutions to any conflict. As such we have a responsibility to reason with eachother to avoid such conflict. Seeing how any action might be in conflict with other peoples interests we can't assume any resource to be unowned or free to exploit. Instead we should assume that everyone has an equaly legitimate claim to it. Thus I suggest that having no other agreement in place everything belongs to the commons.</div>
<div><br></div><div>BR</div><div>John</div><div><br></div><div>Skickat från min iPhone</div><div><br>18 jul 2013 kl. 10:27 skrev Martin Stolze <<a href="mailto:pirate.martin@stolze.cc" target="_blank">pirate.martin@stolze.cc</a>>:<br>
<br></div><div><div class="h5"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">I agree with your sentiment that there should be some very profound
ethical foundation but I must admit that I can’t fully comprehend what
that could be.<br>I understand the economics and can see fallacies in
that argumentation, particularly the common mistake of complete
ignorance of the time value of money.<br>
<br>But as for the ethical debate I can only contribute simple logic and
educated guessing which is why I was hoping you would come up with some
"simple ethical foundations" :D.<br><br>The complexity become obvious if you just scratch on the surface:<br>
<br>You say: <i>“we shouldn't call it taxation as that implies that there is a right to destroy our environment in the first place.”</i><br><br>We
have the ability to shape our environment and so we do. Full stop. That
logic implies in fact a right to destroy (change). Here we maneuver
into the question as to how we value ourselves.<br>
<br>If we underline the logic of the Basic Income as “I am worthwhile
because I exist, I am I, and I am alive” then our very existence
necessitates and justifies the destruction of the environment. The only
thing we could argue about is the degree. Who decides? From here on we
would have to "measure" ... and I don’t even wanna get started with
that. How would a tax/transfer do justice?
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 5:17 AM, John Nilsson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:john@milsson.nu" target="_blank">john@milsson.nu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr"><br>
Den 17 jul 2013 16:35 skrev "Martin Stolze" <<a href="mailto:pirate.martin@stolze.cc" target="_blank">pirate.martin@stolze.cc</a>>:</p><div><br>
> @John<br>
><br>
> "Henry George and geo-libertarians focus on land, and land value rent, but I'm not sure it has to end there. In my mind any transfer from the commons to the private (i.e. copyright, patents, emission quotas and so forth) if to be viewed as ethical at all needs to be compensated in a similar way."<br>
><br>
> Thanks, really interesting point elevating it all on a different level. More details on this?<br></div>
Hmm. Not sure. I think is is the first time I've been able to articulate it so clearly to my self. Which could be indicative of being more of a sound bite than actual insight ;)<p></p>
<p dir="ltr">Maybe one could keep it in mind while reading Benklers Wealth of Networks for some new insights?</p>
<p dir="ltr">BR<span><font color="#888888"><br>
John</font></span></p>
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